Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Vigilance]

No, if analyzing the class without playing it is no good for you--if it MUST be played in order to draw any conclusions--well then, it must be played more than "awhile". It's got to played exhaustively by a diverse group of players testing a vast array of different scoundrel builds for at least several years. Only then can you have a satisfactory conclusion. Let us know how it works out. My bet is that everyone who thought the class got a bum deal before playing it will have their opinions reinforced, while those who thought the other guys were a bunch of Chicken Littles will wind up satisfied that their assessments were confirmed.

This book already did that for you.

But hey, feel free to dismiss everyone else.

Hell, why does anyone need to playtest anything if you can just read things and tell?

The whole reason playtesting is important is that you cant.

 

[Felon]

It's terrible at connoting sudden action and acrobatics. No matter how acrobatic and agile you are, outside the first round of combat you still can't sneak attack without someone to flank for you.

Yes, getting into the flanking position is where acrobatics comes in. I don't why you say it's terrible at connoting sudden action, other than just being arguementative, because that requires even less explanation. If you beat your opponent on initiative, you can paste him regardless of how long he's been aware of you standing there, merely because you acted first (indeed, the "sneak-attack-lite" class feature that doesn't include flanking is called...Sudden Strike).

EDIT--Still, I don't disagree that it does as good a job at turning skulkers into skirmishers as it was intended to. I think that's partially how the Scout wound up with its groovy little Skirmish ability.

 

[Felon]

But hey, feel free to dismiss everyone else.

Hell, why does anyone need to playtest anything if you can just read things and tell?

The whole reason playtesting is important is that you cant.

Your post wasn't a rebuttal submitted for my consideration, so there wasn't anything to dismiss. You were dismissing me, and seemed quite content to do so, and everyone else who thinks they can make educated esitimations about class balance. So glass houses and all that jazz.

What playtesting does more than anything is see how much people like the new stuff. It's a focus group more than anything. For instance, in 3.0's development magic missile was being considered for revision into an attack that allowed a Reflex save. It did a bit more damage, and the designers' comment was probably more balanced than a no-save effect.--but they say players hated it.

 

[Felon]

Soldiers also have Treat Injury.

I scanned for it and didn't see it, but I'm glad it's there.

I would've preferred to see it under the Scout list, since they're already a Wisdom-invested class for Perception and Survival, and the idea of scouts as field medics makes sense.

 

[The Green Adam]

I'm on the fence with and against this concept. Part of me says that is very true just as you wrote it. Another part of me says that class is a mechanic tool for balancing the game which has benefits beyond flavor text... level is a guide for how good/dangerous anything is, quick reference at best.

Do you think that you could still get the same description for any character - Smuggler or Wookiee Mechanic - if you just introduce your character to everyone else that way? I mean, who cares what combination of skills, feats and classes you put together to make it. The important part is how you relate that through Role Playing at the table...

Thoughts?

I suppose but look at the discussion of Scoundrel as potentially a weaker class then the others. So if level is a guide and reference to how tough something is, a 5th level Smuggler should be as tough as a 5th level Jedi, yet it seems that is not the case.

Everyone in WEG D6 starts with 18 dice in their Attributes. Then they get 7 to modify their skills. Then they get three specializations. If the Jedi puts more dice into his Force Abilities then his Brawling he won't be able to handle a good ol'fashioned fist fight against a Gamorrean. This makes sense considering his other advantages. Give and take without the arbitrary class and level restrictions to age.

This is just IMHO and I'm not looking to argue the point or even convert others to my thinking. To be honest it's more a part of the flavor and atmosphere of the SW universe that I think is better handled by the old WEG system. It just always felt more fun. D20 is people discussing weapon speed ratios and group tactics and such is regards to fictional things like lightsabres and Gungans. D6 is about leaping over the wall as the base explodes under a sky full of space fighters. It's how the different games were written to me.

 

[Dragonblade]

Some people said if I want to play beyond 20, then I shouldn't play Star Wars. Well, thats not really the point. The problem is you have a resource that is level dependent but then at 20th level you have no way to ever regain this resource. So if a non-Jedi character (or a Jedi who did not take the ability to reclaim his spent force points) gets to 20th level and uses up all their force points, what are they supposed to do? They are just permanently handicapped? This is a logic flaw in the game itself. And in my opinion its a pretty serious flaw.

I don't necessarily need rules for play beyond 20th level, but they do need to address the problem of 20th level characters restoring spent force points. Or revise the rules to make Force Points a per session resource, or a resource that recovers over time (per day, or whatnot). Which is how it should be in my opinion.

But the rest of the rules rock. I like the feat and talent system (although I think you could have taken it a step further and just made the whole system classless). I love the starship combat rules. I like the way the force works, although I think you should be able to meditate for a round and reclaim a spent force power like the Sword Sage can in ToB, also if you think about Qui-Gon Jin meditating during his fight with Darth Maul, it would even fit the movies well.

Bottom line, is despite the flaws I think this is better than the first two incarnations of d20 SW, and with my house rules, better than even WEG SW. And that is high praise from me.

The authors have not only gotten me excited about playing SW again, but now I'm seriously interested in picking up SW minis for both characters and starships. So again WotC, kudos on making some good product tie-ins.

 

[Victim]

Amazingly, analysts on message boards didn't provide a perfect read of the Monk or convetional Mystic Theurges initially.

Everyone in WEG D6 starts with 18 dice in their Attributes. Then they get 7 to modify their skills. Then they get three specializations.

Unless you're going to argue that all combinations of attributes and skills are equivalent, then the same issue applies in d6.

 

[Cam Banks]

This is a logic flaw in the game itself. And in my opinion its a pretty serious flaw.

To me, it's a trivial thing at best. If my players get their characters to 20th level in my campaign, it's time for a new campaign.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Crothian]

If I have to play a game for a year and a half before I even get to the Flaw I'm going to call it a very minute flaw.

 

[pawsplay]

I scanned for it and didn't see it, but I'm glad it's there.

I would've preferred to see it under the Scout list, since they're already a Wisdom-invested class for Perception and Survival, and the idea of scouts as field medics makes sense.

Also, Scouts as members of societies that are highly self-sufficient.