Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Technik4]

Well, I don't think that the fact Vader can't pick up Palpatine and throw him into the reactor shift is not just a "nuance."

Why can't he?

 

[Felon]

Wait a minute, though -- you went from "lack of combat capability" and "noncombatants" to "not steeped in combat feats." If I am misunderstanding the first position, then I apologize. 3P0 and R2 are noncombatants, no doubt about it -- but the others, while not hardened warriors, were no slouches in combat, either, and the Saga rules take that tack - while someone doesn't have to be a combat monkey, they're GOING to be combat capable.

Here's the cliff notes version of the discussion from where I'm sitting: I agreed with somebody who regretted the book not offering a lot of content (feats in particular) for characters who aren't good at combat (Kaylee from Firefly was given as an example), which was then rebutted by someone who felt that focusing on combat builds made the game true to the spirit of the movies, and then I followed up by pointing out that there were noncombatant characters like the droids and that most of the non-jedi characters were sort of "incidental warriors" at best. That seemed to draw objections out of the woodwork, and things kind of went all over the place from there.

Let me be clear, I think it's great that Saga characters have a general level of capability that lets everyone participate in different sorts of scenes, be they focused on combat, skills, or a mixture (add half-level on damage, add half-level on skill checks--simple and effective). After a certain point, a character won't be a slouch at much of anything. They'll do stuff I don't see characters do in my D&D sessions, like attempt to disguise themselves in order to infiltrate an enemy lair despite many (if not all) members of the party lacking the requisite skills. Very nice. The object of disappointment was the prospect of choosing feats and talents for a character that only does combat "on the side" and whose main contribution is some other area (I'd give examples, but I know how that always works out; folks will dive straight into deconstructing the examples, rather than addressing the point itself).

 

[Felon]

Why can't he?

It takes feats to do things with someone after you grapple them, even things that a lot of folks reckon wouldn't require any special knack, like pinning, tripping, or throwing their opponent.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

To make it clear, I don't think Star Wars Saga is a perfect system, or a perfect representation of the movies, or deserves a billion-star rating.

I think it is by a WIDE margin the best game ever made under the d20 license, the best game ever made under d20-based OGL, almost certainly the best tabletop tactics/RPG ever made, and one of the five best RPGs ever made. I think it deserves a clear 5/5 or 10/10. (To put those ratings in perspective, I would give d20 Modern a 4/5 or 7/10, True20 a 4/5 or 8/10, and Mutants and Masterminds a 5/5 or 9/10.)

I think it does a good job simulating the Star Wars setting as seen in the six movies, and a decent job of simulating the often-conflicting Expanded Universe.

I ALSO think it has a very sparse list of examples (especially of vehicles), that Mechanics should be a class skill for every class, that there are an inappropriately number of typos for such a high-profile product, that the Droid Hero rules are either very poor or unclear, that the Beast class has room for improvement despite being a brilliant concept, and that the scoundrel is somewhat subpar on paper and in my playtesting.

 

[Drowbane]

the first E is Epic

If I have to play a game for a year and a half before I even get to the Flaw I'm going to call it a very minute flaw.

Thats a year and half to allow for WotC to release "ESWSE"...

"For those plucky young jedi who dream of fighting Hecatoncheires Sith Lords".

 

[Felon]

To make it clear, I don't think Star Wars Saga is a perfect system, or a perfect representation of the movies, or deserves a billion-star rating.

I think it is by a WIDE margin the best game ever made under the d20 license, the best game ever made under d20-based OGL, almost certainly the best tabletop tactics/RPG ever made, and one of the five best RPGs ever made. I think it deserves a clear 5/5 or 10/10. (To put those ratings in perspective, I would give d20 Modern a 4/5 or 7/10, True20 a 4/5 or 8/10, and Mutants and Masterminds a 5/5 or 9/10.)

High-praise indeed, the highest being "almost certainly the best tabletop tactics/RPG ever made". How do you distinguish that category from RPG's in general? What else would go in that category besides D20 games?

 

[Bagpuss]

The Ugly - No explanation on leveling beyond 20.

But then seriously how many campaigns get to level 20 anyway? I've been playing D&D since 3.0 and I've yet to play a single campaign to level 20. Most campaigns I've played in finish in the low to mid teens at the latest and they take years to run. Most players now days don't play epic campaigns that go on and on indefinitely, hence rules for over 20th level are pretty pointless for most players and GMs, so why waste pages?

 

[Flynn]

I haven't looked at the rules in depth, but is it possible maybe some of you are setting the book up to fail? It sounds like the rules reflect the movies very well. But even so, it's not going to have everything. F'rex., if there's a Jedi PC whose shtick is "strong apptitude for mechanics," is it really that much of a stretch to allow the player to choose it as a class skill?

If the book has largely nailed the look and feel of the movies, I'd say they achieved their design goal. If they did not manage to include every single nuance, I would not necessarily say that's a deficiency.

Considering that even without having training in a skill, you still get a base of half your level when making rolls, it's still possible to make the rolls.

If the only reason you take a level in a different class is to get a skill as a class skill, then why not create a new feat that allows you to take a skill as a class skill instead. Here's a good example from the Netbook of Feats:

CROSS-CLASS LEARNING [General]
Pick two skills that become class skills for all your classes.
Benefit: Pick any two skills. The selected skills become class skills for all your classes from this point on.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, but does not stack with itself. Choose two new skills to become class skills each time it is taken.
CROSS-CLASS LEARNING Copyright 2000, Bradley H. Bemis Jr.
Revised by the Netbook of Feats Review Board
Balance: 4.35 (Purp 4.75, Pow 4.00, Port 4.50, Comp 4.75, Rule 3.75)

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[Flynn]

I think it is by a WIDE margin the best game ever made under the d20 license, the best game ever made under d20-based OGL, almost certainly the best tabletop tactics/RPG ever made, and one of the five best RPGs ever made.

Just one point of clarification, but the SECR has not been released as Open Game Content, and was therefore never made under the d20-based OGL. Not that one couldn't create an OGL version of the core Saga Edition system (and I imagine someone is already doing so, even as we speak), but Star Wars Saga Edition is not OGL.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I think it is by a WIDE margin the best game ever made under the d20 license, the best game ever made under d20-based OGL, almost certainly the best tabletop tactics/RPG ever made, and one of the five best RPGs ever made. I think it deserves a clear 5/5 or 10/10. (To put those ratings in perspective, I would give d20 Modern a 4/5 or 7/10, True20 a 4/5 or 8/10, and Mutants and Masterminds a 5/5 or 9/10.)

But how much playtime do you have with the game to be so over-the-top in love with it? It's been out for a week? Two?

Given your other ratings, I'm inclined to lean the other way -- I think True20 is a mess, dislike M&M for anything other than Supers, and that d20 Modern would have been a complete waste had it not given birth to Grim Tales.

The more I read of SWSE, the more I see it as a better way to play the movies than the previous d20 incarnations, but seriously lacking for those that want to put their own spin on the SW universe. I'm far more interested in the latter than the former.