Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[GoodKingJayIII]

Well, I don't think that the fact Vader can't pick up Palpatine and throw him into the reactor shift is not just a "nuance." Or that you have to be 3rd level or higher if you want to cherrypick skills.

Let's be frank, here: grappling is a problem in the d20 rules, not the SWSE rules. It has always been a d20 issue. Seems they've made some pretty significant changes, but it's not a new system.

Besides, does Vader really need grappling feats for that one time he picked up a guy in the movies and tossed him somewhere? Ok, two times. But I don't count that incident on the consular ship.

Should it just be treated as a given then that every GM will make that allowance? Or is it possible that feelings of disappointment might be justified on the grounds that a GM won't make such alloances simply because he wants to go by the book?

Sure, not everyone is going to make that allowance. In fact, I think most people will want to start with the RAW before moving on. But if that's the case, work within the system, move on, and if the GM makes any changes down the road, or new books come out, or whatever, ask about them. As we all know, RPGs are pretty fluid in their design, and these things aren't immutable. In the mean time, there's nothing stopping me as a player, taking a level or two in another class to further my vision of the character.

Regarding "setting it up to fail", stating that a book is perhaps disappointing in some respects isn't the same thing as saying it's failed altogether. Some folks are so quick to be overwhelmingly positive--to want to give it a billion-star review--that they brook no criticism. They magnify any criticism out of its original context, and then tell the critic he's blowing stuff out of proportion. There's been a lot of snark in this thread because of that attitude.

You're right. I was being a little hyperbolic, but certainly not snarky. If anyone confused my original post as such, I'm sorry. Definitely not my intent. I think being critical is important; constructive criticism is the first path to improvement. But I think some are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. It's just not possible to do everything in one publication. Is it really reasonable to expect that? This thing's still hot off the grill. Most have not even played it yet. There is plenty of time for criticism.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

High-praise indeed, the highest being "almost certainly the best tabletop tactics/RPG ever made". How do you distinguish that category from RPG's in general? What else would go in that category besides D20 games?

Offhand - previous versions of D&D (possibly excluding AD&D 2e, which drifted the furthest from this style IMX), HERO, Savage Worlds, Runequest, almost every major knockoff of AD&D during the late '70s and early-mid '80s. GURPS and WHFR probably fit, too, but I'll admit I'm not familiar enough with them to be sure; I played both with minis but don't own the books to see if that's how the system is designed to run.

Pretty much any game that began with the assumption of miniatures/counters use and a tactical grid map qualifies (I used a term that refers to a similar class of CRPGs: the D&D Gold Box games, Final Fantasy Tactics, Vandal Hearts, etc.), even if it doesn't require that. (Note that it doesn't have to be explicit.) Exalted is an outlier, in that timing is the core of its tactical engine rather than positioning.

The main contrast would be with games that are either explicitly not designed for map-based play (Feng Shui, Mutants and Masterminds, WoD), and/or are strongly aligned to a GNS stance other than Gamism. (FATE/Spirit of the Century, Wushu, Primetime Adventures, Dogs in the Vineyard, Heroquest).

But how much playtime do you have with the game to be so over-the-top in love with it? It's been out for a week? Two?

Given your other ratings, I'm inclined to lean the other way -- I think True20 is a mess, dislike M&M for anything other than Supers, and that d20 Modern would have been a complete waste had it not given birth to Grim Tales.

Oh, absolutely. As with any early review, it's subject to the caveat "unless it works nothing like that in play." On paper, it hits almost every note right for this type of game, and my early playtest and fooling around with the system indicates that it's going to hit those notes when put to the test in actual play situations, too.

Given your other ratings, I'm inclined to lean the other way -- I think True20 is a mess, dislike M&M for anything other than Supers, and that d20 Modern would have been a complete waste had it not given birth to Grim Tales.

Then it's a safe bet our gaming tastes have absolutely NOTHING in common and we should avoid each others' gaming tables like the plague.

 

[iwatt]

So, lemme get this straight. You go "wow, generalize much?" and then proceed to follow that remark up with "so basically..." and go straight into a generalization of your own. And not just a generalization, but one that actually misconstrues what I said, which was "it's a rare thing to have a DM ever invoke" the aforementioned rules.

Let me see if I can make it clearer then. You said:

Well, you've homed in on why Endurance won't come up every session and won't be of vital importance. Not for most folks anyway. In all the years of playing 3rd edition, I've found it's a rare thing to have a DM ever invoke the rules for forced marches, extended running or swimming, extreme environmental conditions, or malnourishment.

To which I responded that in my games (either as a player or GM) it's a rare thing not to invoke the rules for forced marches, extended running or swimming, extreme environmental conditions, or malnourishment.

Hence, since like most other rules in RPGs, it'll depend on how each group emphasizes it. Which makes any judgment about how good Endurance is a subjective one.

 

[Victim]

To which I responded that in my games (either as a player or GM) it's a rare thing not to invoke the rules for forced marches, extended running or swimming, extreme environmental conditions, or malnourishment.

Hence, since like most other rules in RPGs, it'll depend on how each group emphasizes it. Which makes any judgment about how good Endurance is a subjective one.

That just seems weird to me. If you have to use those rules, it seems like the group has already screwed up. When forced marches come into play, you have to be in a hurry AND not using travel magic, or any one of the other mundane forms of transportation that can be faster like horses, boats, etc. It's generally pretty easy to get around endurance type challenges using other means.

 

[iwatt]

That just seems weird to me. If you have to use those rules, it seems like the group has already screwed up. When forced marches come into play, you have to be in a hurry AND not using travel magic, or any one of the other mundane forms of transportation that can be faster like horses, boats, etc. It's generally pretty easy to get around endurance type challenges using other means.

Which is exactly my point. I'm not saying that Endurance is an uber skill in all games. I can definitely see it as useless if you're dealing with a space hopping/smuggler type game in SW. If instead you're part of a Rebel strike force operating behind enemy lines in Kashyyk, it becomes very important.

 

[Bagpuss]

Add in the fact that a forced march induces nonlethal damage, which Endurance helps you resist, but the party as a whole will still have to stop when the weakest member collapses from nonlethal damage, so one person having the feat hardly helps at all.

 

[comrade raoul]

On Vader and the grappling rules: Whenever you write rules, you can have structure, flexibility, or simplicity--but you only get to pick two. (For three extremes, freeform games choose flexibility and simplicity; tactical wargames pick structure and simplicity; games like Rolemaster pick structure and flexibility.) Saga Edition clearly trades some flexibility for simplicity, in the name of accessibility, and the much more manageable yet more limited grappling rules are an instance of this. Trying to model everything necessarily compromises simplicity, and it's understandable why the designers didn't go that route.

Personally, I'd model the Vader-Emperor showdown like this.
Vader's player: That bastard's frying my son! I want to grab him and toss him down the reactor shaft!
Gamemaster: Do you have the Trip and Throw feats?
Vader's player: Er, no. Normally I slice things up with lightsabers or choke them with my mind.
Gamemaster: Yeah, I know. That's like the fourth time this session you've said that.
Vader's player: ... What if I spend a Destiny Point? It's really important.
Gamemaster: Sure, go for it. I'll just treat you as having the feats for this encounter.

I don't think that's too much of a problem.

 

[Stalker0]

Gamemaster: Yeah, I know. That's like the fourth time this session you've said that.
Vader's player: ... What if I spend a Destiny Point? It's really important.
Gamemaster: Sure, go for it. I'll just treat you as having the feats for this encounter.

I don't think that's too much of a problem.

This is why I like destiny points, actions points, whatever you want to call them, they fill in the flexibility gap that a poster talked about a few posts up. They allow players to break the rules and make the scene happen the way they want it, regardless of how the rules would play out.

 

[Odhanan]

Indeed destiny points can fix this.

One of the houserules I'm thinking of using is allowing, on a case by case basis, the use of any feat/talent requiring a skill check if you don't have it but with a -5 penalty. I just don't like to think of feats and talents as on/off abilities. Never did.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Saga edition is suppoused to cover all of the eras, and in the later eras, New Republic and New Jedi Order there are a few characters who's only levels should be Jedi who are mechanically oriented in addition to Anakin Skywalker. Jaina Solo and Lowbacca were continuously rebuilding and upgrading crashed and damaged ships. They went into Lukes Academy young, and she was using the force as young as 2 or 3. There would be no reason for her to have any other class but Jedi, and yet she has to take another class to get the mechanics skill. By the rules as written, Obi Wan and Anakin couldn't have the mechanics skill, and yet they perform tasks like repairing a ships hyperdrive, jury rigging repairs to a submarine, and buildng a droid and a pod racer from scratch.

Well, that can easily be remedied by allowing characters to spend their bonus trained skill selections from Intelligence on any skill, even if it's not a class skill. All those characters spent one of their bonus trained skills from Intelligence (I'm sure they'd have at least a 12 Intelligence right out the gate) on Mechanics.

Like the moggle said, there's no such animal as an absolutely perfect role-playing game, if only because nobody runs their games in exactly the same way. Best that can be hoped for is a system that requires very little "fiddling" to make it suit your style of play.