Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Ranger REG]

I'm pretty sure we can blame WEG for being the source for a lot of the dumb alien stuff.

Perhaps (never been a fan of WEG). HOWEVER, even WEG material have to undergo approval review from LFL. I have not yet seen LFL contradicting WEG material ... not yet.

Thankfully, I'm not bound by the bad fan fic that is the EU.

Well, there are lots of fans of EU out there. So WotC should not simply ignore their potential income.

 

[hong]

The only part of the game I don't care for are the aliens. Greedo was a bounty hunter so all Rodians must be bounty hunters! Some Bothans are mentioned as spies (how do we even know Bothan is a species?), so all Bothans must be spies! I realize it's a legacy from WEG, but it's lame and they should have broken from it. I'd be tempted to just treat aliens as humans in funny masks (which is pretty much how they're handles in the films), if/when I run the game.

Heck, you have ONE GUY named Darth....

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

The only part of the game I don't care for are the aliens. Greedo was a bounty hunter so all Rodians must be bounty hunters! Some Bothans are mentioned as spies (how do we even know Bothan is a species?), so all Bothans must be spies! I realize it's a legacy from WEG, but it's lame and they should have broken from it. I'd be tempted to just treat aliens as humans in funny masks (which is pretty much how they're handles in the films), if/when I run the game.

First, let me say I fully understand what you're saying. Planets have more than one climate, the high ground is not a universal solution in a swordfight, and species have more than one potential role.

Second, it's not just WEG legacy anymore even if that's where a lot of that material originated. It is now Star Wars cannon. We could no more break from it than we could decide there were 3 more Death Stars that just didn't finish construction, or the Sith were originally heroic monks who just got misunderstood, or the Y-wing was the coolest starfitghter even with 9 laser cannons. There's a continuity of Star Wars material, and while we can lean on it, add to it, give it context, and modify it in nonintrusive ways, we can;t just break with it.

Third, nowhere in Saga does it say all Bothans are spies. It says they have an inclination toward information brokering, and espionage is a natural part of their culture. Well, aliens from different cultures should have a personality centerline different from humans--who in the real world seem to have an inclination toward open warfare and include games of violence re-enactment as a natural part of their culture. Just as there are pacifist humans, there will be direct-violence Bothans. We discuss how a human would see the norm for other species, not make sweeping declarations about the role of every member of a species. If we fell to hyperbole too often, I apologize.

Honestly, I don't see it as that different from "Dwarves are known for their skill in warfare," or saying halfings are "cunning, resourceful survivors." I mean, dwarves and halflings don't detect as magic so there's isn't some mystic power making all halflings cunning, and Star Wars has the Force to fall back on anyway.

Again, for people just getting into roleplaying through a Star Wars gateway I want a few, easily grasped character hooks for personality. I trust everyone else to make and play they characters they like no matter what the rulebook says.

Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman

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Loot 4 Less III: Belts, Boots, Cloaks, & Gloves

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Neither can I. Although the long list of errata that I saw on the WotC board is a bit sad. Of course, there will always be errata. That's what you get from buying first printings .

Can you post a link to the errata? All I found in the Errata section was errata for the previous edition, at which is what I suspect you were looking at.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/swrpgrcrerrata

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Something I got a big beef with is the inequity between certain classes. You look at how things pan out and tell me if anybody gets the short end of the stick:

HIT DICE
Noble, Scoundrel--d6
Scout--d8
Jedi, Soldier--d10

SKILLS TRAINED
Jedi--2
Soldier--3
Scoundrel--4
Scout--5
Noble--6

BAB
Noble, Scoundrel, Scout--Tops out at +15
Jedi, Soldier--Tops out at +20

Closest thing I see to a "short end" is the Scoundrel, who were the skill masters but now have fewer trained skills, and are still tied for worst hit die with the Noble. At least their Reflex Defense is still decent, but the Scout ties with them there as well, and has better hit dice and more trained skills.

Jedi and Soldier might look like it based on their skills vs. the others, but they make up for it with the biggest hit die per level and best BAB progression.

Also, Jedi characters really only need one skill, Use the Force, to do their thing, and can select talents to enable them to use that one skill in place of several other skills (such as Initiative, Perception, Persuasion, Pilot). And since most PC Jedis are going to take Skill Focus (Use the Force), that one skill becomes pretty darn potent, especially once Force Powers are factored in to it. Heck, Force Lightning is by far the deadliest power in the game so far, hitting with the force of a thermal detonator, automatically moving you down one step on the condition track if it hits, and causing you to suffer half damage if it misses.

Soldiers also get a plethora of bonus feats to start with, as well as having the most robust selection of bonus class feats in the game (pretty much every combat feat out there).

 

[Felon]

I see your point (scoundrel and scout should switch skills) but that doesn't take into account talents and class skills (or starting defenses) that make scoundrels very useful.

Closest thing I see to a "short end" is the Scoundrel, who were the skill masters but now have fewer trained skills, and are still tied for worst hit die with the Noble. At least their Reflex Defense is still decent, but the Scout ties with them there as well, and has better hit dice and more trained skills.

Good eyes. The scoundrel does indeed get the short end of the ol' stick. He gets the lowest hit die, and is less skilled than either a noble or scout.

This is not a minor oversight. It's a conscious design decision that a bunch of people gave a thumbs-up to during what I hear was supposed to be a very thorough playtesting process. I thought I might be overlooking something, like the scoudrel getting more force points per level, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The scoundrel is quite simply...out-of-whack.

It's most glaring when comparing the scoundrel to the scout. Remathilis is correct in that switching out their skill points would have the obvious balance-conscious thing to do. Rem also mentions talent trees, class skill lists, and starting defense bonuses have to be taken into account, but all of that's a wash. Scoundrels get one talent a level like all other classes. Their skill isn't particularly outstanding (about as generous as a noble or scout's list, which actually aren't really all that better than a jedi or soldier's). Class defense comes to a total of +3 in bonuses just like everyone else. Total wash.

Evaluating talents is kind of subjective, but having said that, a noble is certainly better equipped to act as a face-man for the party, and a scout is better equipped at stealth and combat. The scoundrel's talent trees are Fortune, Misfortune, Slicer, and Spacer. Frankly, none of them provide a definitive niche for a player IMO. Slicer and Spacer are pretty situational in their usage, making them weak assets. Fortune and Misfortune are mostly just minor buffs and debuffs, but they offer general utility so I suspect that's where we'll see most players gravitate, (actually, I suspect most players considering a scoundrel will give up and gravitate to the scout).

I say this is poorly done, and definitely counts as both a "bad" and an "ugly". Someone go start a thread on the WotC board so we can maybe can official excuse...err, explanation.

 

[Shalimar]

My main beef is not being able to take a skill cross-classed. You have to multiclass and then spend another feat on top of that. The easiest fix is to make the skill training feat let a person take any skill.

 

[Nebulous]

Well, got the book today and been reading over it. Got to say, i love the rule changes. I love the damage track, i like how we understand Grapple now, i like the way skills are streamlined and consolidated.

BUT...and i hate that there is a but...but i don't like the layout of the book. I flipped through the Revised Edition in my closet (haven't pulled it out in years) and was immensely more impressed with how it looks. WAY more. So, this just comes down to an aesthetic preference to me. Fortunately, the rules in the Saga edition are so solid that i would easily start a campaign with those rather than reverting to the "prettier" Revised edition. I really just wish we could have had the slick look and the content too.

 

[Victim]

Scoundrel gets one of the best first level bonus feats: Point Blank Shot. Useful on its own especially with the massive increase to PB range, and a prereq for other good feats. Combine that with the misfortune tree with its sneak attack and dastardly strike, and the scoundrel seems much more offensively focused than the scout (with Shake it Off and mostly defensive/skill related talents). Scouts need Con 13 and Endurance to even get their starting feat. The scoundrel skill list also seems better than the scout's with Acrobatics, Deception, and Computers over Survival and Climb/Jump/Swim (why aren't you a single skill?).

 

[SteveC]

Here's a simple question that I just haven't seen, so I'm assuming it's just me misreading things...

Does SAGA still have a 5' step? In looking through the AoO rules, it says you provoke an attack whenever you leave a square that's threatened by an opponent, but it doesn't say anything about the 5' step.

Now under the cleave feat, it says that you can't make a "combat adjustment" before your cleave attack, which I assume is similar to the old 5' step, but I can't find a reference for that combat adjustment. Anyone else see what I missed?

--Steve