Star wars - which version?

[Mr. Wilson]

I've played them all, and the one that felt most "Star Wars" to me was the WEG d6 version.

WEG Star Wars is one of my favorite game systems I've ever played. But, as Lost Soul state, I'm so biased that I hesitate to provide further analysis.

 

[Water Bob]

Another vote for WEG's D6 Star Wars game. I've never seen a better match of mechanics and game universe.

Absolutley fantastic game.

Can't believe it's been gone for so long.

 

[Dave0047]

Having played WEG's d6, Wizard's d20, Wizard's Revised d20, and Wizard's Saga Edition, I can VERY EASILY say Saga Edition was by far the best version of Star Wars Roleplaying I have ever played.

This version had more of a true cinematic and "star-warsy" feel to it than any other version, and the Jedi class was perfectly balanced with the other classes. In fact, I continually reference the playtest preview of Saga Edition (the Sarlaac Pit fight from Episode VI run through the new Saga rules) as a prime example of how perfectly in-tune with the movies this edition was (link here).

There has never been an easier Star Wars game to play and enjoy in my opinion than the very focused, streamlined, detailed, and thematic Star Wars Saga Edition rules. They will be sorely missed, and I'm glad I personally own one of every book from that series (and two copies of the Core Rulebook).

I have a feeling that only Fantasy Flight Games has the ingenuity and resources at this point to potentially restore Star Wars roleplaying to it's former (Saga Edition) glory. I mean, seriously, have you SEEN the newest Warhammer RPG stuff? It's gold, all of it!

[/end of SW and FFG fanboy rant]

 

[Water Bob]

This version had more of a true cinematic and "star-warsy" feel to it than any other version, and the Jedi class was perfectly balanced with the other classes.

I've never played the Saga version, having found WEG D6 edition to be perfect, but I have a question. Shouldn't the Jedi classes not be "balanced" at all?

D6 did balancing by removing dice for each Force Power, but it was a great trade. Force powers make a character uber.

And, that's the way a Force user should be, right?

Feared by his opponents?

 

[Dave0047]

...Shouldn't the Jedi classes not be "balanced" at all?...And, that's the way a Force user should be, right?...Feared by his opponents?

Well, I honestly can't decide if you're being serious, trying to troll, or just have no idea what "balance" or even "fun" is.

You can't have an enjoyable game with one player vastly over-powering the other players just because you think a "force user" is the end-all be-all character type in Star Wars roleplaying. Why are the other players bothering to waste their time watching the Jedi stroking his ego?

Saga Edition did a fantastic job keeping the Jedi balanced with other classes because they had the "big picture" in mind when going through that process. Sure, a Jedi is fluff-wise a powerful opponent with amazing capabilities, but the point of a roleplaying group is to tell a story about a PARTY of characters who are all equally amazing in their own rights. The Soldier may be the only one in the galaxy who's able to use a Heavy Repeating Blaster Cannon like it was a sniper rifle. The Noble might be the only one in the party who can bribe or persuade their way through even the most lop-sided situations that would spell certain death should it turn into a brawl. The Scoundrel might be the most resourceful member in the party, able to fix any vehicle or starship ever made, hack any security system ever devised, or even pilot a Capital Ship through an asteroid field without getting so much as a scratch on the paint.

The Jedi can do some pretty jaw-dropping things, and can easily have the story centered around him/her, but it is definitely not (nor should it be) the center of attention. Every player at the table needs to be able to equally participate in the action and the story.

 

[Dave0047]

The person who posted that comment on my post (Dice4Hire) obviously didn't get what I was saying. Saga Edition is the best Star Wars RPG out there. It's mechanics are creative and synergetic, and completely work. There was no problem going from the books/movies to RPGs....

 

[pukunui]

As much of a SWSE fanboy I am myself, I will say that while the Jedi class is more or less balanced with the other four classes (noble, scoundrel, scout and soldier), Force users can still be overpowered compared to non-Force users. And Force users can be of any class because the Force mechanics are divorced from any specific class in Saga Edition.

Saga Edition's one main failing is the application of skill checks against defense scores. It's way too easy to get too high a modifier at low level, not just with Use the Force, but also with Deception and Persuasion, thus making it so you can't fail to hit with Force powers and also can't fail to convince low-level opponents to do what you want. I've fixed this with a fairly comprehensive house rule (that adds a second "skill attack" modifier to the mix).

 

[Water Bob]

Well, I honestly can't decide if you're being serious, trying to troll, or just have no idea what "balance" or even "fun" is.

I'm quite serious. Many, if not most, rpgs don't have balanced character classes. A discussion I had last year with Steve Winter, one of the three designers AD&D 2nd edtion with Zeb Cook and Jon Pickens, will back up that statement: Check out where he says, "Ultimately, this debate runs afoul of something that we were keenly aware of while working on 2nd Ed., which is that there's no such thing as balance between character classes and races" in post #132 of This Thread.

So, there you go, one of the game designers of a popular edition of the largest, most played rpg in the world, saying specifically that there is no such thing as balance between character classes.

Am I being a troll? Nope. Do I have an idea of what "balance" is? Yep. And, do I have an idea of what "fun" is? I do, and I've had mucho fun playing all sorts of rpgs with unbalanced character classes.

You can't have an enjoyable game with one player vastly over-powering the other players just because you think a "force user" is the end-all be-all character type in Star Wars roleplaying. Why are the other players bothering to waste their time watching the Jedi stroking his ego?

I guess nobody enjoyed 1st edtion AD&D, then? Where there was vast differences and "balancing" issues between classes?

Do you only stick to point-buy rpgs? If not, what do you do when one fighter rolls an 18 STR in D&D while another rolls a 14 STR? What if one D&D character has stats 18-12-17-15-11-16 and anothr has stats 14-9-11-15-16-7 ? Isn't that a balancing issue? (And, we haven't even begun to speak of the differences in the classes.)

Yet, in spite of the balancing issues, tons and tons of D&Ders out there play the game, over several editions, without worrying too much how balanced the different classes are.

And...they have tons of fun doing it.

I do stand by my comment, too: That the Jedi characters should be "bad-ass" and not necessarily "balanced" with other types of character classes in the Star Wars universe.

A 5th level Thief would probably have a hard go at a 5th level Paladin, and I think a same level Computer Tech should have a hard time against a same level Jedi.

 

[billd91]

The person who posted that comment on my post (Dice4Hire) obviously didn't get what I was saying. Saga Edition is the best Star Wars RPG out there. It's mechanics are creative and synergetic, and completely work. There was no problem going from the books/movies to RPGs....

No, I think he got it and I totally agree with him. Were you to look at the prequels and certain other sources out side of the original trilogy, there's no way a Jedi looks at all balanced or even balanceable with other classes of characters. Too many authors, including Lucas, seem wrapped up in topping whatever came before. That SWSE balanced the Jedi as well as they did despite the record in the prequels and expanded universe offerings is a major accomplishment.

 

[Dave0047]

I'm quite serious. Many, if not most, rpgs don't have balanced character classes. A discussion I had last year with Steve Winter, one of the three designers AD&D 2nd edtion with Zeb Cook and Jon Pickens, will back up that statement: Check out where he says, "Ultimately, this debate runs afoul of something that we were keenly aware of while working on 2nd Ed., which is that there's no such thing as balance between character classes and races" in post #132 of This Thread.

So, there you go, one of the game designers of a popular edition of the largest, most played rpg in the world, saying specifically that there is no such thing as balance between character classes.

I'm sorry, none of those names mean ANYTHING to me, and 99% of most roleplayers out there. When I flip open my RPG books to the list of people involved in writing/creating/publishing them, none of those names come up. Why? Probably because the good games don't have those failures involved. I say failures because an epic fail statement like "there's no such thing as balance" is rather laughable considering the dedication to balance in today's Pen and Paper RPG's and video game RPG's. Those names in fact now leave a bad taste my mouth considering they're quite ignorant of something that has been figured out for quite some time...

I've had mucho fun playing all sorts of rpgs with unbalanced character classes.

So do power gamers, though nowadays they have to try harder because it's not so much a class balancing issue as it is a min/max and win-at-all-costs issue.

I guess nobody enjoyed 1st edtion AD&D, then? Where there was vast differences and "balancing" issues between classes?

You're just proving my point, that the Saga Edition of Star Wars roleplaying is vastly superior to that version of D&D because, ZOMG, there IS balance!

Do you only stick to point-buy rpgs? If not, what do you do when one fighter rolls an 18 STR in D&D while another rolls a 14 STR? What if one D&D character has stats 18-12-17-15-11-16 and anothr has stats 14-9-11-15-16-7 ? Isn't that a balancing issue? (And, we haven't even begun to speak of the differences in the classes.)

Um, I'm sorry, but I don't use point buy OR die-rolls, though I have no problem with them. Apparently you've never heard of the Standard Array. Do some research. As for the differences between classes in Star Wars and the differences between classes in D&D 4.0 and the differences between classes in the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch books, you need to take a closer look at what each class excels at. If you're purely focusing on combat and comparing a Jedi's combat capabilities against a Noble (in say, Star Wars Saga Edition), then you're doing not one, but TWO things wrong. First, you're not even remotely taking into consideration the fact that the Noble would not engage the Jedi in combat to defeat him. He is smarter and wealthier than that. Second, should the Noble actually have to fight the Jedi personally he would do so with the same weapons a Soldier would use, as all he needs to do it is maybe a feat or two. He would then spend the next 20-30 rounds firing at range on the Jedi, evading a hand-to-hand scenario, and maybe even using his brains and/or his money to his advantage to overwhelm the Jedi in some form or another.

Yet, in spite of the balancing issues, tons and tons of D&Ders out there play the game, over several editions, without worrying too much how balanced the different classes are.

That's because they ARE balanced! GASP!

I do stand by my comment, too: That the Jedi characters should be "bad-ass" and not necessarily "balanced" with other types of character classes in the Star Wars universe.

However, you are not defining "bad ass". The Jedi might suck at hacking, and the Slicer Scoundrel would then step-in and save the day where the Jedi would just be drooling all over the computer trying to figure out why "it's not working".

A 5th level Thief would probably have a hard go at a 5th level Paladin, and I think a same level Computer Tech should have a hard time against a same level Jedi.

Really? You're really stuck on this whole concept of "the only thing that exists is combat" huh? Well, maybe that's why you're not understanding what balance actually is.