D&D 5E Starter Set Character Sheet Revealed!

So you're saying it's either binary or it's not?

Thaumaturge.

Not at all.

I'm saying it's non-binary, contrary to his binary assertion. It's not "Superheroes OR Trad Fantasy", and in fact, that's not even a genuine axis, it's a combination of multiple axes. His claim that these things are binary is false, abjectly so.
 

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Depends how you look at it, doesn't it?

If you look at it as a sort of MAGIC POWER!!!!!!!, that they suddenly gain, then yeah, it does seems weird.

If, on the other hand, you equate it more to, say, Combat Reflexes from GURPS (which I don't think is a bad comparison), and see Action Surge as product of serious combat training that other classes might not experience, then I don't really see the "jarring"-ness.

Plus "motormouth"? Come off it. Spells cost one action to cast. Many of them can become Swift, implying that they don't actually *require* much speech at all. There isn't any "motormouth"-ing going on because spells are not you talking for an entire round or something (otherwise they'd be more vulnerable to interruption, 1E/2E-style). Stuff like that is putting barriers in your own way and then claiming the path is blocked, imho.

Become swift? Unless the rules there have changed (and yeah, this is very possible) spells are either swift or they aren't. The only examples of swiftifying in the last playtest were the bard's Battle Magic (11th) and the enchanter's Rapid Enchantment, which clocked in at 16th level. That suggests to me that being able to shorten a spell's intonation time is a rare, high level ability - not really the province of basic fighter training. I can see where you're coming from with your 'Combat Reflexes' example, but to me it seems like confirmation that it's possible to justify anything if you come at it from the right angle. (Shades of the 'grappling a swarm' discussion from 4e).
 

Not at all.

I'm saying it's non-binary, contrary to his binary assertion. It's not "Superheroes OR Trad Fantasy", and in fact, that's not even a genuine axis, it's a combination of multiple axes. His claim that these things are binary is false, abjectly so.

I'm sorry.

My post should have contained at least one of these: :D

Thaumaturge.
 

Become swift? Unless the rules there have changed (and yeah, this is very possible) spells are either swift or they aren't. The only examples of swiftifying in the last playtest were the bard's Battle Magic (11th) and the enchanter's Rapid Enchantment, which clocked in at 16th level. That suggests to me that being able to shorten a spell's intonation time is a rare, high level ability - not really the province of basic fighter training.

I guarantee you that there will be others in the PHB. What you want to bet?

I can see where you're coming from with your 'Combat Reflexes' example, but to me it seems like confirmation that it's possible to justify anything if you come at it from the right angle. (Shades of the 'grappling a swarm' discussion from 4e).

Equally, you can throw barriers in front of yourself until anything is unjustifiable. :)

The Combat Reflexes analogy is a simple, straightforward one, not requiring any great leaps or logic or imagination, so I think it's valid. It's not a stretch or anything. If you don't like it - oh well. Either justify it yourself, or don't, or, in fact, one could take the third path and no only not justify it but actively come up with roadblocks like "motormouth" business, but be aware that you have choices.
 

Its worse than the 5MWD spellcaster issue, because second wind goes to the REAL crux of the 5MWD - hit points. Low Hit points are what really make the party stop and break. The party can continue on without spells, but not HP.

Ray of Frost is analagous to basic attacks, not really relevant to a discussion about second wind/action surge.
1. Err... No, it's not. The 5mwd is all about spellcasters having their best whammies at all times. In 3.x, the mighty healstick of CLW made healing between fights far faster than it will ever be in Next for a Fighter.

2. You were talking about how overpowered a second action is in a chase. Ray of Frost ends a chase then and there. That's the relevance.
 

On str, nothing stops a wizard doing this from starting as a fighter while neglecting str, then branch out due to the high int. Multiclass score prerrequisites are meaninngless when they can be avoided by singleclassing first.

A) You are stuck playing a 10 STR fighter for two levels. You will probably die. So there is the entire "hey party, I'm playing a fighter that can't hit things in melee!" bit.

B) This assumes the MC requirements stay only one sided; meaning that you aren't required to have both classes' MC requirements. I have no special knowledge of such things, but it would not surprise me if that is changed in the final PHB.

And I think that this Nothing is allowed until DM decides to is the most dangerous thing that could happen. I still insist that a more extense standard for play is desirable, and DMs still need to be encouraged to say yes, giving DMs the sole monopoly over character options will discourage the sales of lots of phbs, why buy something if all you get to use is already free? Or another one thought I hold, every single retroclone and their mom already gives the big four, and they are very easy to get right, but only DND can give the full experience and variety of races and classes and they aren't as simple, if the DMs are the gate keepers of all of that and the content for DMs is aimed at core four, then there is a chance we won't see many barbarians, warlocks and sorcerers this edition, and this might lead to blanket bannings or DM egocentrism which is a very real concern, I've already had to deal with it in editions which 'entitled players', I can only guess it will only be worse in an edition which entitles DM to intrude into the players characters.

I think you are overreacting and sort of missing the point about 5E, which, frankly, for a ton of people hyperanalyzing every little bit of 5E, is mind-boggling. 5E is a very basic framework of a game, with the capability of "build your own edition". The game is designed from the ground up assuming that each group will make changes to fit their specific playstyle. Everyone seems to be hung up on the "official" rules, when the design of the game explicitly states that each group is intended to make minor and/or major modifications to make the game fit their own group.

OK with Damage on a Miss? Here's some mechanics that use it. Not OK? Here are equivalent mechanics that don't use it. Fine with people being able to heal themselves? Here are some mechanics for it. Not fine? Here are some alternate mechanics. The hard work in the edition is getting said mechanics to balance with each other, which for the most part, I think they've managed to do a real good job of it.

As for "DM empowerment", well, all they've done is shifted the burden to the whole group on how to play. By making multiclass opt-in rather than opt-out, it means that the game is balanced around non multiclass characters, meaning that players aren't screwed for not going an optimization route with multiclassing, as well as allowing WotC to not have to try to come up with ways to deal with every potential corner case of multiclass power-gaming. Making gaming groups sit down and customize the game the way they like it before they start seems like a pretty good idea to me, overall. People having "power" over each other in a gaming group is an issue between the people, not the game.
 

Plus "motormouth"? Come off it. Spells cost one action to cast. Many of them can become Swift, implying that they don't actually *require* much speech at all. There isn't any "motormouth"-ing going on because spells are not you talking for an entire round or something (otherwise they'd be more vulnerable to interruption, 1E/2E-style). Stuff like that is putting barriers in your own way and then claiming the path is blocked, imho.
I predict very soon we'll have people complaining that a fighter being able to make two actions only once a fight is unrealistic, because if they can do it once, why can't they try to do it again?

Then I'm going to be in the weird position of defending 5e from anti-4e people. Strange bedfellows, indeed.
 

1. Err... No, it's not. The 5mwd is all about spellcasters having their best whammies at all times. In 3.x, the mighty healstick of CLW made healing between fights far faster than it will ever be in Next for a Fighter.

2. You were talking about how overpowered a second action is in a chase. Ray of Frost ends a chase then and there. That's the relevance.

1. ah , no, the 5mwd is about delaying the module for no good reason.free healing every hr is going to promote that more than trying to rest 8 hrs for spells which are not as essential as hp.

2. ray of frost is completely irrelevant to action surge in terms of a balance discussion. completely.
 


1. ah , no, the 5mwd is about delaying the module for no good reason.free healing every hr is going to promote that more than trying to rest 8 hrs for spells which are not as essential as hp.

2. ray of frost is completely irrelevant to action surge in terms of a balance discussion. completely.
HP are cheap. In 1e, Potions were everywhere. In 3e, you had a CLW wand available for a pittance that trivialized non combat healing. In 4e, it's less available than 3e, because you at least have a hard cap instead of wands a plenty.

For the second point, you're the one who brought up chases?
 

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