D&D 5E Starter Set Character Sheet Revealed!

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Comparing Crank-Fighter to Pun-Pun is like comparing fireworks to the Tsar Bomba, dude. Both Pun-Pun and Bag of Rats were indicative of real rules problems which did need addressing, and indeed, the latter was addressed, as I recall (and probably the former, but I never followed it closely).

This seems to be just a bit dubiously written. I imagine the actual in-book ability has a clearer limitation, or will obtain one.

Yes I think the "we fixed the bag of rats even though it was not really a problem at anyone's table" is the source of their new plan to ask people if something is a real problem at people's table before they issue errata. If most people say "naw we dealt with that issue just fine on our own" they will not issue errata anymore. And I think it will be a better game for it. They are going to assume actual humans with logical thinking brains are playing the game, not robots who crash into walls unless instructed to go around them like a game of robo rally.
 

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sidonunspa

First Post
Maybe I am one of the exceptions to the rule. If that's the case, then that is sad.

5e should have been old school rules for helping the DM do those kinds of things with a few modern things thrown in like ascending AC, advantage, Warlord, Tiefling, and maybe some skills. Well, in my view.

VS


Except, sadly, you and I are in the minority friend.... :(

I have had the pleasure to play games with a lot of GM's, I have had the chance to play pick up games at GenCon, DragonCon, and Origins....

we are in definitely in the minority.....

it's easier for us to strip out some rules then for rules monkeys to add them in...

personally I rather change the fighters second wind power to something like a dodge/parry mechanic where the fighter can attempt to parry an attack, maybe at the sacrifice of an attack. (maybe a static bonus to full defense actions?)

Regardless, they have to design the game to.... and I hate to say this.. the lowest common denominator

heck I would argue that D&D is not the best system for our kind of GM'n.... but I started with D&D and it feels familiar to me.... but as a game designer I'm not above tinkering
 
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RedShirtNo5.1

Explorer
Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the later school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic!) It does little to simulate anything either. .... For fun, excitement, and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed. As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even a reflection medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who desire the later must search elsewhere.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 

Hussar

Legend
It's a monstrous creature with no comparison in the real world. So one fantasy creature is tougher than some other fantasy creature. That's not inconsistent with anything.

Well, considering the only thing that actually exists in the real world that exists in the game, is humans (and some of the animals I suppose), how in the world can you claim any sort of simulation? The sim has to be based on something doesn't it? You're perfectly fine with all sorts of completely arbitrary decision points made in the name of game play - the reason harpies have that many HP is because they are meant to be a threat to an X level party, not because of any sort of in world reason - but, apparently that makes for a consistent world?

How is that consistent? In what way does a completely arbitrary set of decisions with absolutely no backing in the game world or even remote nods to things like physics or biology result in consistency?

The whole point of simulation is you can answer the why questions. That's the reason you use sim based play. If you cannot actually tell me why a harpy is tougher than an orc or even a large giant like an Ogre, then how can you claim any consistency? Ogres have more HP than orcs because ogres are bigger than orcs. That makes sense. Bigger things have more HP. Ok, consistent. But, it's not actually true. Things that are much smaller also have more HP - a harpy is tougher than an ogre.

You can find all sorts of inconsistencies in D&D. That's because D&D has never actually been a sim game.
 


VengerSatanis

High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
Except, sadly, you and I are in the minority friend.... :(

I have had the pleasure to play games with a lot of GM's, I have had the chance to play pick up games at GenCon, DragonCon, and Origins....

we are in definitely in the minority.....

it's easier for us to strip out some rules then for rules monkeys to add them in...

personally I rather change the fighters second wind power to something like a dodge/parry mechanic where the fighter can attempt to parry an attack, maybe at the sacrifice of an attack. (maybe a static bonus to full defense actions?)

Regardless, they have to design the game to.... and I hate to say this.. the lowest common denominator

heck I would argue that D&D is not the best system for our kind of GM'n.... but I started with D&D and it feels familiar to me.... but as a game designer I'm not above tinkering

We may be in the minority, but let's see it as exclusivity rather than the last couple guys to jump ship for Dungeon World, 13th Age, or the like. ;)

I think that dark shape a few pages back was you. Assuming it was, thanks for inspiring my latest idea / blog post, Sidonunspa (Tywin Lannister from The Golden Child?). I copied/pasted it here...

Badass Tricks, Maneuvers, and Stunts


What might seem like a no-brainer to one GM may be a revelation to another... or idiotic drivel. Depends on the GM.

This idea was born from a discussion I had with another gamer on EnWorld. I'm sure you're familiar with this song and dance, it goes a little something like this...

"AD&D is boring, especially if you're playing a fighter because all you can do is attack (swing your sword or whatever). While in a game like 3.5 you've got a ton of options."

"Balderdash! In AD&D, you're not restricted to any specific maneuver. You have the freedom to make it up as you go, roleplaying the action alongside the DM. If you want to do a flying kick or somersault slash at the Orc's ankle, there's nothing to stop you."

To which the original guy responds, "You might do it that way, but most DMs don't. With them, it's by the book, etc, etc."

For the last couple years (it's difficult to remember exactly what I allowed or was ok with back in High School or even games 5 years ago), I've tried to encourage players to describe their attack before rolling whilst keeping an open mind about the possible outcome. Of course, with the right (or wrong) player, this can get out of hand. If a majority of DMs did this, abuse would rear its ugly head. Where's the potential downside of attempting a trick move or fancy stunt?

I've come up with this...

1. Player states he wants to attack the foe before him.

2. GM asks (especially if this is the first session or two you're introducing the concept - if you've been this awhile, then it's up to the player to state how he wants to differentiate his attack), "How do you want to attack him? What, specifically, are you doing?"

3. "I try slicing off the wizard's hand - the one holding that wand." (could be thrusting his sword into a Troll's eye, whatever).

4. (GM assesses the difficulty on a range of 1, 2, or 3. The more difficult the maneuver, the higher the number - to a max of 3. Let's say the stated action is a 2). "Alright, that's going to be fairly challenging. Roll your standard attack. If you hit, you accomplish what you had in mind. If you miss, then you failed to connect with your target or it just didn't have any appreciable effect. However, if your attack roll comes up a natural 1 or 2, then it's a disaster, epic fail. Your foe gets a free attack or the next guy to hit you does max damage or your weapon gets knocked out of your hand... something like that."

5. "Fair enough." The player rolls an 18, which is above his target's AC.

6. "Awesome! The wizard's decrepit hand is lopped off by your flashing blade. He screams in anguish and won't be able to use his wand until after he picks it back up."

7. Hi-fives all around. The GM turns to Larry, "What does your cleric want to do on his turn?"


So, there you have it. Any character can try anything (within certain limits) but there's a drawback for rolling terrible. If it's a move that would be customary for the particular character (based on class, level, and so forth), then the difficulty and potential downfall is only a 1. If it's really specific (as in targeting a small area) or kind of tricky but definitely not impossible, then it might be a 2. If it borders on astounding but still within the realm of believability, give it a 3 - roll either a 1, 2, or 3 on the to-hit d20 roll and it's bad news for attacker.

Please, feel free to critique this. Rip it apart, find a better way of doing it, add something on, take something else away, whatever. This idea came to me while driving in my car this morning. It hasn't been playtested or anything. Just thought it was pretty cool.



VS
 
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Hussar

Legend
VS, that's not a bad little idea. Nice and fun. But, that can be added to any system, which means that it actually isn't related any edition of D&D in any way, shape or form. You've ADDED tactical elements to AD&D, great. But, that kinda misses the point of the criticism; that AD&D lacks tactical choice.

Let me ask it this way, if AD&D was loaded with tactical options, why did you add this system? It would seem somewhat redundant if the player already had a number of tactical options to choose from.

IOW, adding something like this to, say, 3e D&D, would be a drop in the bucket since 3e already outlines a dozen or so different combat manoeuvres that a fighter could choose from, straight out of the book. In AD&D, it becomes a big change to how characters operate in combat, because before you add this in, there are no choices to be made.

This is why it's so hard to have these conversations. The person you were talking to was talking about AD&D, not VS AD&D. Trying to add in your particular house rules into a discussion about an edition makes a fast moving target and an endless series of "Well, what about this?" posts.
 

Chaltab

Explorer
VS, that's not a bad little idea. Nice and fun. But, that can be added to any system, which means that it actually isn't related any edition of D&D in any way, shape or form. You've ADDED tactical elements to AD&D, great. But, that kinda misses the point of the criticism; that AD&D lacks tactical choice.

It's also worth pointing out that having actual maneuvers and options in the books gives you a consistent mechanical framework to perform them and evaluate them, which means they can be measured against each other and balanced*. If each DM is making their own rulings for tactical options then there's no real way to make sure these options work outside that specific gaming group.

*Granted balance isn't guarnateed even if the tactical options are encoded, seeing as how most Fighter's feats in 3.X are usually wasted rounds in combat unless you super-specialize into those techniques.
 

VengerSatanis

High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
VS, that's not a bad little idea. Nice and fun. But, that can be added to any system, which means that it actually isn't related any edition of D&D in any way, shape or form. You've ADDED tactical elements to AD&D, great. But, that kinda misses the point of the criticism; that AD&D lacks tactical choice.

Let me ask it this way, if AD&D was loaded with tactical options, why did you add this system? It would seem somewhat redundant if the player already had a number of tactical options to choose from.

IOW, adding something like this to, say, 3e D&D, would be a drop in the bucket since 3e already outlines a dozen or so different combat manoeuvres that a fighter could choose from, straight out of the book. In AD&D, it becomes a big change to how characters operate in combat, because before you add this in, there are no choices to be made.

This is why it's so hard to have these conversations. The person you were talking to was talking about AD&D, not VS AD&D. Trying to add in your particular house rules into a discussion about an edition makes a fast moving target and an endless series of "Well, what about this?" posts.

Yeah, you've definitely got a point. Old school games lacked a lot of the roleplaying advice which was intuitive for some. The rest of us had to learn it from Vampire: the Masquerade. ;)

Roleplaying isn't like science or engineering. It's an art form, and that makes it interpretive. Some have always played like that, others haven't. Maybe the majority believes that different maneuvers are happening all the time in the abstract and the to-hit and damage rolls represent a wide array of special moves, except the granularity gets lost in the abstraction. The absence of guidance in AD&D is a problem for a lot of gamers. Although, perhaps there is some esoteric language buried within the AD&D DMG that encourages the kind of play I described... or the Rules Cyclopedia.

However, if the rules state that at 3rd level a rogue can do A, that with a certain feat a cleric can do B, and a Dwarven fighter can learn to do C if he multi-classes as a ranger, then most DMs and players assume that all such stunts are restricted to the mechanical acquisition of individual powers and abilities. That restriction interferes with trying something out that's not on the character sheet. AD&D's blank canvas seemed to give old school gamers more license to just make stuff up. Of course, a blank canvas goes both ways. It can also be interpreted as featureless.

Additionally, if you have "cleave" listed as one of your character's abilities, most players will say, "I cleave." or, "I'll use cleave on this guy." Where's the motivation to actually describe how he's going to cleave an Orc in the dungeon?

Just my three cents,

VS
 

Hussar

Legend
Oh, fair enough VS. I tend to agree. I like rules light games. I was simply commenting that when people talk about the lack of options in AD&D, they're talking about mechanical options that are part of the system. It's not that you can't do what you're talking about, you certainly can. It's that doing so isn't actually part of the system that they are talking about. I mean, there's no reason you cannot bolt that system onto 3e or 4e either. It would work just as well there as in AD&D.

Although, I would say that the lack of a battle map and mechanics related to using a battle map (or a tabletop and lengths of string) does have a limiting factor on tactical options. Theater of the Mind combat tends to be a lot less tactical, IMO. Not better or worse, just less tactical in nature.
 

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