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In fact the edition exists. It is called 4e. And it is generally accepted that designing monsters and NPCs in 4e is an order of magnitude simpler than designing for 3E.
I don't think anyone would suggest that they had the goal of making monsters more complex. Most people would say that designing monsters became much easier in 4E. I'm just saying that they accomplished that goal by throwing any attempt at simulation out the window, rather than by implementing a much more complex model of simulation.

And honestly, that seems like it should have been a solid move. Many people would say that 3E went overboard on the sim elements, trying to pin down every different independent variable (with the exception of Hit Points), to the point of being nigh unplayable as a game. And in doing so, they court the moderates and the gamist crowd, at the cost of losing the sim crowd.

I'm sure that they're aware of this. I just lament that they've decided I'm not their target audience anymore.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Most people would say that designing monsters became much easier in 4E. I'm just saying that they accomplished that goal by throwing any attempt at simulation out the window, rather than by implementing a much more complex model of simulation.
If, by "simulation", you mean "every game mechanical property and process corresonds isomorphically to some non-relative ingame property or process" then yes, they abandonded simulation.

But if you mean that they abandoned consistency in the gameworld, then I disagree. Assuming that you play using the default MMs and MVs, kobolds, goblins, ogres, trolls etc are consistent in their toughness. But the mechanical realisation of that is in terms of two relative properties - level and role - which taken together yield that consistent toughness.

There are some features of those monster books that you could point to to run a stronger thesis about the game's anti-simulationism (for instance, what exactly is the relationship between level 4 duergar and level 14 duergar?). But those are pretty marginal cases, mostly connected to the way they frame Underdark adventuring.

But it's very easy to ignore those few examples and still play full-bodied 4e. The solo-elite-standard-minion-swarm spectrum is no obstacle to a consistent gameworld.
 

The Hitcher

Explorer
If you ask me, 4E is too consistent. It is that consistency that itself makes the game-world feel artificial. Quirk is where it's at. But not so much quirk as to bog down the story.

(By the way - I'm not reading everything you guys are saying, just interjecting because I feel like it.)
 

If you ask me, 4E is too consistent. It is that consistency that itself makes the game-world feel artificial. Quirk is where it's at. But not so much quirk as to bog down the story.

(By the way - I'm not reading everything you guys are saying, just interjecting because I feel like it.)

I wonder how familiar you actually are with 4E's rules, when you say stuff like that. 4E was not generally so consistent that that was an issue at all. Many classes were quite significantly quirky and weird, as were many enemies.

It was, admittedly, much more an issue in the first year 4E was out (for example, MM1 is totally guilty of "too consistent" as well as the monsters just being badly designed outright), but the longer 4E existed, the better it got at doing quirky, interesting stuff. By the time of Essentials and the like, 4E was certainly not guilty of what you're suggesting.

Plus, previous editions had too much consistency at times, too, in ways that made the game feel pretty artificial (both 2E and 3E have examples of this).

Rituals were a low-point in this area, though, being too consistently "pay some money/ritual materials, roll a single check", though. But rituals had a lot of problems in general.
 

The Hitcher

Explorer
I wonder how familiar you actually are with 4E's rules, when you say stuff like that. 4E was not generally so consistent that that was an issue at all. Many classes were quite significantly quirky and weird, as were many enemies.

It was, admittedly, much more an issue in the first year 4E was out (for example, MM1 is totally guilty of "too consistent" as well as the monsters just being badly designed outright), but the longer 4E existed, the better it got at doing quirky, interesting stuff. By the time of Essentials and the like, 4E was certainly not guilty of what you're suggesting.

I only had to run one game (about three sessions, if I recall correctly) to know that it really (really, really) wasn't for me. The issue we're discussing here was one of a few (interconnected) reasons for that. That game left such a bad taste in my mouth that I honestly thought I was done with D&D for good, so I wasn't around to see Essentials or anything that happened post-2009. Looking at it now, it definitely seems like it had moved in a better direction, but I'm not going to go back and read it in detail. I adore almost everything about Next/5E (philosophically and from a rules perspective) and I'm very happy that the age of 4E has receded.
 

If, by "simulation", you mean "every game mechanical property and process corresponds isomorphically to some non-relative ingame property or process" then yes, they abandoned simulation.

But if you mean that they abandoned consistency in the gameworld, then I disagree. Assuming that you play using the default MMs and MVs, kobolds, goblins, ogres, trolls etc are consistent in their toughness. But the mechanical realisation of that is in terms of two relative properties - level and role - which taken together yield that consistent toughness.
Er, yes? I wish that they would be externally consistent in their mechanical representation of an entity that is supposed to be internally consistent, both because it's less work and because it introduces less inconsistencies elsewhere.

I'll buy that a minion against a level 17 party can be the same as an elite against a level 7 party, but my big problem - which showed itself back when I was playing 4E on a regular basis - is what the creature's stats are when it's just by itself. Or when it's fighting a different monster. Or when it falls down a thirty foot cliff. Constantly re-defining the same creature would be a ton of work, especially as perspective changes.

And I'm pretty sure that the answer from 4E is supposed to be, "Don't worry about it". That's not an acceptable answer to me, though. The whole reason I bought the game and learned the system is so that it can answer those sorts of questions.
 

Chaltab

Explorer
Er, yes? I wish that they would be externally consistent in their mechanical representation of an entity that is supposed to be internally consistent, both because it's less work and because it introduces less inconsistencies elsewhere.

I'll buy that a minion against a level 17 party can be the same as an elite against a level 7 party, but my big problem - which showed itself back when I was playing 4E on a regular basis - is what the creature's stats are when it's just by itself. Or when it's fighting a different monster. Or when it falls down a thirty foot cliff. Constantly re-defining the same creature would be a ton of work, especially as perspective changes.

And I'm pretty sure that the answer from 4E is supposed to be, "Don't worry about it". That's not an acceptable answer to me, though. The whole reason I bought the game and learned the system is so that it can answer those sorts of questions.

I think the core issue here is that you're both looking for entirely different things? I mean, internally consistent and simulationist? That's definitely not 4E, and it's not really any edition prior to 3E either. There are elements of trying to make things gel and be naturalistic in prior editions, but as Gygax himself said, that was never really the point so much as genre emulation. (The genre D&D embodies has varried over the years, but that's a different matter.)

So Third Edition, coming out when it did, tried to model internal consistency much more thouroughly than prior editions, and they did this for several reasons which make sense in context: the general attitude towards game design at the time was disdainful of 'incoherence', and the original intent of the OGL to make D20 the default system across much of the medium also meant that a consistent process sim for creating content was desirable--or so they thought--to keep things consistent between publishers with free reign.

And maybe that could have worked with tweaked circumstances... but this is the thing: 3rd Edition itself died quickly, replaced by 3.5. But even after the .5 update, the game was still a mess as far as balance went. The rules that were supposed to create consistency ended up causing massive monster HP bloat. Fighters were worse at fighting than other melee classes, and monsters were easier to take down with caster abilities that could ignore HP entirely. And of course, the OGL had the inadvertant effect of given other publishers the ability to cheaply create competitive products, some of which sharing only the basic skeletal structure of D&D.

All of this to say: it's not incorrect to value internal inconsistency in an RPG, but I do think it is... not something that D&D can or should implement. It's something that backfired spectacularly the one time it was tried from a mechanical perspective, and was more damaging than constructive financially as well (especially in creating D&D's current biggest competitor, Pathfinder.)

While technically, poor balance, simulation vs emulation, and the unreserved and permenant giveaway of intellectual property are all seperate issues, they converged in a way that makes it seem highly unlikely that D&D will ever go that route again. And I think that's where Saelorn and pemerton are baffling each other. Especially for fans of editions other than 3rd, its design is extremely tied up a series of huge blunders on WOTCs part, blunders that 4E perhaps swung too far in correcting, but not something anyone who liked 4E would want to return to.
 

Shaangor

First Post
I'll buy that a minion against a level 17 party can be the same as an elite against a level 7 party, but my big problem - which showed itself back when I was playing 4E on a regular basis - is what the creature's stats are when it's just by itself. Or when it's fighting a different monster. Or when it falls down a thirty foot cliff. Constantly re-defining the same creature would be a ton of work, especially as perspective changes.

Why does that matter though? Why does it matter what the monster's stats are when there is nothing observing it and isn't involved in the story at all? I'm genuinely curious, because as a DM I have never cared about the stats of anything in my game world except when my PCs are actually interacting with it. Same goes for if it fights another NPC: I'm not going to actually stat out any of the combatants and roll the fight because the only thing that really matters is the outcome. If the outcome of an unobserved fight needs to be determined, I'll determine it using whatever arbitrary method I want. From the player's perspective it makes no difference, because I wasn't going to make them watch me roll it out anyway.
 

If the outcome of an unobserved fight needs to be determined, I'll determine it using whatever arbitrary method I want. From the player's perspective it makes no difference, because I wasn't going to make them watch me roll it out anyway.
If the outcome of an unobserved fight needs to be determined, it should be determined using the same methods as if it were observed. Or at a minimum, the outcome of the fight needs to be the same as what the outcome would be if you'd figured it out long-hand. As a player, I trust that the GM is being objective in such determinations. Because whether something takes place on-screen is only a meta-game state that doesn't carry any in-game meaning, and having the outcome influenced by something from outside the game universe would violate causality - and there's no way I can suspend belief enough to buy into a non-causal universe.

It's a tree falling in the woods, and science is very clear about what happens when nobody is watching.
 

Dausuul

Legend
In fact the edition exists. It is called 4e. And it is generally accepted that designing monsters and NPCs in 4e is an order of magnitude simpler than designing for 3E.
That's not because of 4E's "relativist" approach to hit points. It's because 3E used the same rules framework for monster design and PC chargen--the only edition of D&D to do so. All other editions have taken the approach that monsters can have whatever stats the DM thinks appropriate. 4E just added a handy set of guidelines for judging power level.

One of the nice things about 5E is that bounded accuracy should make it possible to avoid needing multiple statblocks for the same monster. The same hobgoblin stats can work for the single hobgoblin you battle as a 1st-level newbie, and the battalion you hack through as a 20th-level demigod.
 

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