Hey all, So we just started Out of the Abyss last week, and ran into a bit of confusion regarding items which the party members already had from previous adventures. The scenario strips all of the character's items from them when they're thrown into the pen. For the mundane items, there was some grumbling, but people got over it. However, we had two people who had magic items. The first was someone who played an Expedition adventure the previous week while waiting for OOA to start up. The second was a DM who got a DM award for running the game last season. As a short term solution, we indicated that those items just wouldn't be available in this scenario. But our understanding is that the AL rules stated unless an item is actually destroyed (which isn't usual for most magic items) that a player can't lose those items, and they can't be stolen. Thoughts? Is there a place in the story where the players would naturally be able to recover their items? Is this an exception in AL where magic items can be removed from players? Should the DM allow the prisoner to have hidden the item away? This might work for small items, ("I carried this uncomfortable piece of metal...") but not weapons or other larger items...
Starting with Magic Items in OOA (Spoilers)
- Thread starter DocSharpe
- Start date
skerritthegreen
Explorer
Check room 7
Which also suggests that, if the players never check room 7, they'll never get their magic items back.
There is nothing in the Adventurers League Player's Guide that says that a magic item can never be taken way from a player -- indeed, the following line from the ALPG:
"Permanent magic items that are broken, lost, stolen, discarded, or destroyed still count against your total number of magic items."
...suggests that it is expected that players will occasionally have permanent magic items taken away or lost.
Your players may be mis-remembering a rule from Living Forgotten Realms, which noted that lost or destroyed magic items could be replaced after the adventure in which they were lost or destroyed.
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Pauper
There is nothing in the Adventurers League Player's Guide that says that a magic item can never be taken way from a player -- indeed, the following line from the ALPG:
"Permanent magic items that are broken, lost, stolen, discarded, or destroyed still count against your total number of magic items."
...suggests that it is expected that players will occasionally have permanent magic items taken away or lost.
Your players may be mis-remembering a rule from Living Forgotten Realms, which noted that lost or destroyed magic items could be replaced after the adventure in which they were lost or destroyed.
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Pauper
kalani
First Post
If the players never check room 7, find another place in the adventure in which to place their items (possibly Sloop). If the party does any side missions along the way, you could also place their magic items (and spellbooks if generous) there.
While you are correct that magic items can be permanently lost - that line of text assumes that the party loses them due to something which occurs during an adventure (such as the item being stolen and never recovered as per the adventure text). The only thing the party did to lose their items in Abyss, was start the adventure in Chapter 1. Characters which start the adventure several sessions later will not be deprived of their magic items (or even mundane gear).
Failing to check room 7 results in the loss of all mundane gear. It is highly likely that many parties will fail to check this room as the adventure text implies that the party should flee with haste by the quickest route possible (checking the armory, and then fleeing down the ravine). Only the most antagonistic of DMs would say that the party missed their only opportunity to recover their magic items.
It may take the party 5+ sessions to recover their magical items in the event that they fail to check room 7, and that is sufficient "punishment" for not being thorough.
My party for example, failed to search any rooms other than the Armory (not sure if that is room 7 or a different room) and we have no less than 3 "grey bag's of tricks" that have yet to be recovered. We have already completed the Sloop encounters, and have just reached the gates of a Duregar city which I believe is in chapter 3 or 4. I suspect that we will recover our magic items there.
Angering players because they failed to check a single room which isn't readily apparent is not what I would recommend. All that will cause is players to leave your table.
My DM for example, gave no indication that there were any other structures outside of the armory and the quaggoth latrines in his description of the prison, and never once showed us a map so that we might orientate ourselves or explore buildings that weren't even described as existing.
While you are correct that magic items can be permanently lost - that line of text assumes that the party loses them due to something which occurs during an adventure (such as the item being stolen and never recovered as per the adventure text). The only thing the party did to lose their items in Abyss, was start the adventure in Chapter 1. Characters which start the adventure several sessions later will not be deprived of their magic items (or even mundane gear).
Failing to check room 7 results in the loss of all mundane gear. It is highly likely that many parties will fail to check this room as the adventure text implies that the party should flee with haste by the quickest route possible (checking the armory, and then fleeing down the ravine). Only the most antagonistic of DMs would say that the party missed their only opportunity to recover their magic items.
It may take the party 5+ sessions to recover their magical items in the event that they fail to check room 7, and that is sufficient "punishment" for not being thorough.
My party for example, failed to search any rooms other than the Armory (not sure if that is room 7 or a different room) and we have no less than 3 "grey bag's of tricks" that have yet to be recovered. We have already completed the Sloop encounters, and have just reached the gates of a Duregar city which I believe is in chapter 3 or 4. I suspect that we will recover our magic items there.
Angering players because they failed to check a single room which isn't readily apparent is not what I would recommend. All that will cause is players to leave your table.
My DM for example, gave no indication that there were any other structures outside of the armory and the quaggoth latrines in his description of the prison, and never once showed us a map so that we might orientate ourselves or explore buildings that weren't even described as existing.
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Tyranthraxus
Explorer
If its magical armor or a weapon, then have one of the Drow Elites using it. Sure it might be non Drow make , but its still magical and nice and the Drow just have to have it.
Also if you play the Drow overconfidence angle, and you want the players to get a rough idea of the buildings that make up the prison area actually get the Drow talking to each other about the ARmory : 'Dont let the Priestess see you with that Human Sword even if it does cut better, she will take out your tongue and put both in the armory!'
You can use npcs as exposition devices and adventurers use bar people as information fonts, they can use overheard conversations to go 'We need to go to the ARmory' .
Edit: The Podcast Recounting Encounters goes into this more but its pretty much the same idea. If its a magical weapon or prominent item then simply have a Drow wear it uncomfortably.
Also if you play the Drow overconfidence angle, and you want the players to get a rough idea of the buildings that make up the prison area actually get the Drow talking to each other about the ARmory : 'Dont let the Priestess see you with that Human Sword even if it does cut better, she will take out your tongue and put both in the armory!'
You can use npcs as exposition devices and adventurers use bar people as information fonts, they can use overheard conversations to go 'We need to go to the ARmory' .
Edit: The Podcast Recounting Encounters goes into this more but its pretty much the same idea. If its a magical weapon or prominent item then simply have a Drow wear it uncomfortably.
Let's nip this one in the bud right freakin' now.
If a player asks if he can bring a pre-existing character into Out of the Abyss, and you as DM respond, "Sure, but the character loses all of his gear in the introduction and might never get it back," and the player decides to bring in the character anyway, that is not "punishment" -- that is the player making a decision and having to live with the consequences of that decision. If losing his character's magic items permanently would be such a blow to him, he can and should make the decision to bring in a different character who doesn't have magical gear.
The 'we don't have time to search all the rooms' problem is a different issue. This is more of a problem with trying to use a module where, ideally, the characters would slowly accumulate information and hidden gear prior to making their break-out attempt (see Stalag 17, The Great Escape, etc., for movie references to this sort of scenario), but presenting this scenario in an environment where such a slow-moving prologue would likely cause new and novice players not to return for subsequent weeks, so instead the typical party just goes for broke and tries an action-oriented break-out that doesn't lead to detailed investigation. If the party decides they're getting out of the prison *now*, regardless of their preparations, the DM isn't obligated to provide them a map of the complex so that they might choose to treat the prison as a dungeon and collect all the loot -- showing the party the quickest way out of the prison and letting them follow that route is entirely defensible.
(As an aside, when I ran the breakout for my home game, I specified that the armor in the armory was drow-sized, and players who weren't the right size or shape for the drow armor would be considered non-proficient with that armor until they got the armor re-sized -- see Variant: Equipment Sizes in the PH/Basic Rules. The party still took the armor, but the need to find an armorer motivated them to make a bee-line toward the nearest settlement instead of simply wandering without purpose through the Underdark.)
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Pauper
kalani
First Post
Fair point, however it does not address the issue of characters who have DM reward certificates and other similar items - which are brand new characters. Such characters should not be penalized, as they have never played an adventure with said character previously.
There is also the issue of characters who join the party after the party has escaped. Such characters are not bereft of their gear, as they were never imprisoned like their commrades who played from session 1.
Being too hard-nosed over this situation will simply result in players creating throw-away characters for the first part of the adventure, and then swapping to their actual characters once they flee their imprisonment. This defeats the survival-horror nature of the adventure, but is perfectly legal.
There is also the issue of characters who join the party after the party has escaped. Such characters are not bereft of their gear, as they were never imprisoned like their commrades who played from session 1.
Being too hard-nosed over this situation will simply result in players creating throw-away characters for the first part of the adventure, and then swapping to their actual characters once they flee their imprisonment. This defeats the survival-horror nature of the adventure, but is perfectly legal.
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
A prudent player in this circumstance would elect to delay using the DM reward certificate until a point in the the story which allows them the graceful opportunity to introduce it.
"Hey, look what I found in this bag of drow iron rations!"
Except that it's been pointed out in other threads that the DM reward cert is only allowed on a brand new character.
So thanks all...I kinda got the basics of what I needed to help the three people in question:
* There is a place in the module where it makes sense for players to recover their valuables (this can also be applied to a character who had his father's sword...a mundane longsword... as a part of his character's background write-up. He was kinda heartbroken about that one.)
* In the event the party doesn't head to a specific location, the DM can certainly work other ideas in.
* In the event the party manages to avoid all these ideas, he tried, and there seems to be language in place for dealing with it.
So thanks all...I kinda got the basics of what I needed to help the three people in question:
* There is a place in the module where it makes sense for players to recover their valuables (this can also be applied to a character who had his father's sword...a mundane longsword... as a part of his character's background write-up. He was kinda heartbroken about that one.)
* In the event the party doesn't head to a specific location, the DM can certainly work other ideas in.
* In the event the party manages to avoid all these ideas, he tried, and there seems to be language in place for dealing with it.
kalani
First Post
DocSharpe is correct. A DM reward certificate must be used on a brand-new character with 0XP, as per the following FAQ:
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