Starwars D20 Variations/House Rules?

[Lobo Lurker]

I think something that needs to be asked first is, have you ever actually played the game? Not that I'm implying you haven't, but if that is the case, there may be a number of things you're not taking into account. For example, Force-users have to split their skill points up between their Force skills and non-Force skills. Another thing to take into account is that using the Force requires the sacrifice of vitality points, effectively like bleeding yourself in DnD.

Yes, I have. But not extensively. I just remember being put off by the lack of 'hey look what I get' at level up (D20 Modern gets big points for that as players always get something at level-up. Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved is good at that as well).

And yes, I'm aware of the costs involved with being a force user (1st level feat sacrifice, skill point sacrifice). That's a balance issue though, which we're not really dealing with.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

I thought most did (at least on most levels) with the revised rules, which ones have noticable gaps?

I'll check my RCR when I get home... I don't usually carry my game books with me to work (except for the gaming goodness that is Werewolf: The Forsaken as I haven't finished reading it yet). Off the top of my head (and relying on my unreliable memory) The Fringer, Tech Spec., and Scoundrel seemed a bit uninspired to me. I'll have to go over the Scout's abilities 'cause I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

Interesting observation about the Scout & Soldier in your game Plane Sailing (though I never thought the Soldier was underpowered). Question though: Do the Jedi in your game try to do a couple things well or be well-rounded Jedi?

 

[Pbartender]

You know... I've been planning on a Star Wars campaign for a long time. The only trouble is, after rewatching the entire 6-movie series, I find the D20 Star Wars rules just a little boring. A character in the game will never really even come close to doing any of the cool stuff the characters (even the non-Jedi) in the movies can.

I thought about running a Star Wars game using the Gestalt rules... That would help a lot, but wouldn't completely solve the problem.

I'm also thinking about using the Spycraft rules in a Star Wars setting... But that's probably a topic for a different thread.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Frightful Presence requires a 13+ Charisma and not 15+. Darth Vader has a 13 Charisma and is the textbook case of that feat.

While, to a point, I can agree with that being a good representation of the Feat, Vader doesn't need it. He has a +10 Reputation score. With that high of a Reputation, one doesn't need Frightful Presence to terrify people around you.

This is already RAW. It's really annoying, particularly if you don't start with a force-class for rp reasons. But it is exactly appropriate to the setting.

No, it isn't. Force Sensitive feat may be taken at any time. Its the three other Force Feats, Alter, Control, and Sense, that require you to have taken FS already.

Also note that you can pick up a Force Using class without actually having the FS feat. Why? Because you gain the feat as a Starting Feat from the class. And its not all that bad this way, either. Many post-Old Republic Era Force Sensitives do not discover the fact until much later in their life that they have some potential with the Force...many don't even show those 'giveaway' traits of quick reflexes, etc.

The Fringer, Tech Spec., and Scoundrel seemed a bit uninspired to me.

They are all very good classes, especially the Scoundrel. In fact, most players I've seen end up taking a level in Scoundrel. Scout is almost always ignored unless the character sticks with it the whole time.

As for Fringer and Tech Specialist. Many people cry that they're underpowered and useless. They aren't. The Fringer is the perfect Jack-of-all-trades class. I've seen Fringers do so much, and they're usually much more diverse in builds than even Soldiers with all those Bonus Feats. Its a very broad class, but obviously its not something that's going to be everyone's style.

Tech Specialist is, simply put, not a combat class. Sure, it can shoot a blaster when you get right down to it, but this guy's niche is support. With the technology of Star Wars it is impossibly helpful to have someone around to fix that speeder on the side of the street, build a spare part from scratch, etc. I have seen Tech Specialists show up Jedi. Not because I haven't given Jedi their time in the spotlight, but when a player gets the Tech Specialist class down and really figures it out, they're a thousand times more valuable than some punk who has to run up in front of everyone's line of fire to fight.

A character in the game will never really even come close to doing any of the cool stuff the characters (even the non-Jedi) in the movies can.

Ha! My experience with the game is the exact opposite of this. But looking at numbers can't do this, and neither can stats to an extent. Its up to that one, horrible little random variable...the players.

 

[Pbartender]

Ha! My experience with the game is the exact opposite of this. But looking at numbers can't do this, and neither can stats to an extent. Its up to that one, horrible little random variable...the players.

Pardon? Yes, you can look at the numbers. (I don't have my RCR with me, and I haven't seen the movie recently, so bear with me a little. All I've got to work with is the SRD and memory right now. Correct me if I'm wrong.) For example...

During Episode I, Obi-Wan Kenobi is not quite a Jedi Knight. Which means the book should have have him listed at about 6th or 7th level. During his and Qui-Gon's fight with Darth Maul, we gets kicked off one catwalk and falls down to another. He recovers himself, stands up, and leaps almost straight up back to the other walk.

At best, Obi-Wan would have 10 ranks in Jump... If he spent his skill points wisely, it'd be easy to say he could push it up to a total of +15 with modifers.

Now, by the SRD rules, a measly 8 foot high jump with a 20' running start makes for a DC 32 (!) jump check. Without the running start the DC doubles!

To jump 8 feet straight up with a running start, Obi-Wan would need to roll a 17 or better on his d20. He needs another +7 in Force bonuses to make it an even chance. At a standstill, he can't do it on his own, and would need nearly +50 in Force bonuses to have even the slimmest chance of making it.

But of course, in the movie, that jump is a lot higher than 8 feet, and Obi-Wan doesn't stand around for half a minute burning up vitality points (which he'll need later to fight Maul) activating Force powers to make the jump. He just stands up and does it.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

Heh, I know this is probobly heresy here, but someone over on White Wolf's New World of Darkness forum made a StarWars system based off the new World of Darkness rules. Looked fairly interesting. I like the Storytelling rules and just might try to do such a conversion one day (my D20 Modern SW conversion kind of fell by the wayside due to a lack of time).

Just as another tangental idea, if you've ever played White Wolf's Orpheus game it had an interesting mechanic whereby you could tap into your Spite (read Dark Side) and gain tangible power benefits... but it would make you degenerate just that much faster (roll spite rating each time you do this (I think; its been a while)... each success gives you a temporary spite point and if you gain 10 of these they convert into an additional permanant Spite point. At Spite 10 your shade took over as your conscious self could no longer control your darker half). Such a mechanic just screams USE ME for a StarWars game. Why are Sith so irredeemable? Because thier normal selves are just to weak to control the darker urges of thier psyche.

I wonder if there'd be a way to implement that in the d20 game? Maybe have Light Side & Dark Side points track as actual stats? Or maybe come up with additional uses for Dark Side points (that had the possibility of giving you MORE darkside points).

Question for those of you with Jedi players/playing experience: In the D20 game, IS the Dark side more powerful? I know that it is if you spend Force points at lower levels. In the SW fiction I think it was eventually decided that the Dark side was, in fact, more powerful than the Light side... but then again, the Light side won't ever kill you/burn you out.

 

[wingsandsword]

During Episode I, Obi-Wan Kenobi is not quite a Jedi Knight. Which means the book should have have him listed at about 6th or 7th level. During his and Qui-Gon's fight with Darth Maul, we gets kicked off one catwalk and falls down to another. He recovers himself, stands up, and leaps almost straight up back to the other walk.

At best, Obi-Wan would have 10 ranks in Jump... If he spent his skill points wisely, it'd be easy to say he could push it up to a total of +15 with modifers.

Now, by the SRD rules, a measly 8 foot high jump with a 20' running start makes for a DC 32 (!) jump check. Without the running start the DC doubles!

To jump 8 feet straight up with a running start, Obi-Wan would need to roll a 17 or better on his d20. He needs another +7 in Force bonuses to make it an even chance. At a standstill, he can't do it on his own, and would need nearly +50 in Force bonuses to have even the slimmest chance of making it.

They actually explain that in the first issue of Star Wars Gamer, they did a round-by-round breakdown of the fight from a game mechanic perspective (and I think they also answered this exact question in a readers letter. That move was considered a Tumble check to move through his space and behind him, not a Jump check to move, how could he just leap into the air like that? Force Point, and a clarification/explanation that Force Points let you do more than just add some dice to a skill check, the GM should be generous with cinematics and let amazing things happen because the Force is being seriously used. Those really neato things that Jedi do that seem to elude the rules? Force Points and a GM who is in a cinematic mood.

Oh, and for the record Obi-Wan was Jedi Guardian 6 in Episode I (according to the OCR, and presumably the events of Ep. I, especially the Maul fight, put him to JG 7 and thus Knighthood).

As for house ruling Frightful Presence, nobody's ever taken the feat so it's never come up. It still requires an odd number, like feats should.

As for force sensitives developing it out of nowhere or not even showing the signs, not if you look carefully. Recall that in the Jedi Academy novels, Luke found his first class mostly by having R2 look through galactic records for people with impossible luck, incredible skill, or other anomalies. They got a few red herrings, like someone who always won when gambling at the races (they were cheating), but they found a lot of people who never really thought about their predictive abilities or remarkable reflexes, or thought everybody had those abilities so they never talked about it. There are two cases in the EU I can think of with established characters just being declared Force Sensitive, Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn.

Kyle Katarn is a bit of a thorny one, since he was even trained by the Empire and was in Stormtrooper training, but wasn't mysteriously promoted or transferred if he was going to be a soldier. However, there are the Soveriegn Protectors, the most elite arm of the Royal Guard who are actually taught basic Force techniques, so he might have been secretly considered a candidate for them. The end of Dark Forces, where he first appears even closes with Vader saying he has strength in the Force, so the end of his first appearance hints that he may have Force potential.

Corran Horn was a starfighter pilot, where inhuman reflexes are par for the course, and they do drop subtle hints throughout the X-Wing novels that he might have Force talent. If you go through and read the novels, he does have a lot more hunches, luck, and the like than any other pilot in the squadron.

I just like also ruling as a 1st level requirement because it keeps Force users are part of a characters concept, something they intended for, instead of "Hey, I'm going to take Force Sensitive now, suddenly it turns out I was strong in the Force!". When I was in a Rebellion era game and the party found a Jedi Holocron, most of the PC's suddenly wanted to take Force Sensitive. That's when I realized that as a GM I had to restrict the feat. I might, might grant a waiver for taking it at higher levels in certain circumstances (like extensive Sith alchemy manipulation), but as a general rule, take it at 1st level.

 

[Pbartender]

They actually explain that in the first issue of Star Wars Gamer, they did a round-by-round breakdown of the fight from a game mechanic perspective (and I think they also answered this exact question in a readers letter.

Too bad for those of us who can't or don't want to afford the magazine subscriptions, eh?

That move was considered a Tumble check to move through his space and behind him, not a Jump check to move, how could he just leap into the air like that?

I think your thinking of a different part of the scene than I was... I wasn't referring to Obi-wan hanging in the pit, and leaping out. Earlier, before Qui-Gon dies, Maul kicks Obi-Wan in the face, and Obi goes falling off a catwalk onto a lower walk. Maul and Qui-Gon saunter off toward the Hall of Force Fields. Obi-Wan gets up, jumps about 20 feet straight up back to the previous catwalk, and runs after them.

Force Point, and a clarification/explanation that Force Points let you do more than just add some dice to a skill check, the GM should be generous with cinematics and let amazing things happen because the Force is being seriously used. Those really neato things that Jedi do that seem to elude the rules? Force Points and a GM who is in a cinematic mood.

That's fine, I can handle that... Too bad they didn't put that in the RCR to remind everyone playing the game.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

Yeah... if ever a game needed an action point mechanic, its StarWars. So... Action points for non-force users and Force points (action points with more Umph!) for force users?

 

[Khorod]

Wow! All this time I thought you *had* to take Force-Sensitive at first level. But you do have to take it before picking up Force-User levels, which still leaves you a feat behind.

There's a possible compromise here. If they don't take Force-Sensitive at first level, charge them three Force Points for it. They can become trigger their force-sensitive-ness by 'absorbing' that weighty power.