StarWars d20

[s0rn]

Also, Dissipate energy is a misprint - it should be that for every two wound damage, you take you gain the vitality back. Even still it seems very powerful. However, what is wrong with deflect? both Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn can easily deflect the blaster bolts - they raise their defense using deflect and if the droids miss it was deflected. What they have a real hard time doing is redirecting the bolt back at the droids, although I understand the reasoning behind the way deflect (attack) is setup.
Of course (well, it shouldn't be "of course" but unfortunately it is) there are some things that are not quite right with the new book. NPC write-ups being one of the big ones. But they are working on errata, and hopefully things will be cleared up soon.
Oh, and I don't really get what you are saying about Yoda and the two jedi classes. Yoda has 10 levels in Consular, and 10 levels in Jedi Master, not 20 in Consular. so his fighting skills should be superior to just a single class jedi.

 

[Don Carnage]

About Yoda'n All

I put that under a tonal rubrik, more of a thematic question: Why are there 2 Jedi classes? Before Attack of the Clones, I was satisfied.

Now, Yoda brings in the question of why there are two. From the movie, it can be inferred that there are no Consulars and Guardians, just Jedi. After all, Dooku's stats are more than a match for Yoda, as are Mace Windu's. Shouldn't our favorite lawn ornament be, well, ya'know, better? He is referred to in reverence when appraising his sword skills.

It's now looking as if all Jedi receive the same training, but the difference is where their aptitudes lie.

That's what I meant, cap'n. Should there be two Jedi classes? Honestly?

 

[hong]

Re: About Yoda'n All

Now, Yoda brings in the question of why there are two. From the movie, it can be inferred that there are no Consulars and Guardians, just Jedi. After all, Dooku's stats are more than a match for Yoda, as are Mace Windu's. Shouldn't our favorite lawn ornament be, well, ya'know, better? He is referred to in reverence when appraising his sword skills.

So he multiclassed, and/or is higher level than everyone else. I don't see why this is such a big problem.

 

[Ranger REG]

I sense sarcasm. Color me wacky, but like Prego, it's in there.

Oh, yeah. The "armor doesn't make you harder to hit" argument didn't convince me one bit.

BTW, Prego's advertisement is misleading. Not everything's in there, and if it's in there, it doesn't look like it comes from a garden.

 

[Psion]

Re: About Yoda'n All

That's what I meant, cap'n. Should there be two Jedi classes? Honestly?

In a word: yes.

Let's face it: everyone and their dog is going to want to play Jedi. I think the Guardian/Counselor dichotomy helps create a bit stronger distinction that a jedi can use from the outset.

Re: Yoda's saber skills: Yoda has 10 levels of Jedi Master, which has the same BAB advancement as a Guardian, and is a 20th level character. There is good reason to hold his lightsaber skills in high praise.

Going back:

the Deflect SQ is broken (i.e. Mace Windu or Qui-Gon Jinn never being able to get a chance to deflect a blaster bolt from a battle droid)

I've heard this before, and let me say:

BUNK.

When you get an extra roll against incoming attacks, what really happens? You are less likely to get hit. The Deflect SQ does the same thing now, only simpler, without tedious roll-offs.

And mace Windu and Qui-Gon have plenty of chances to deflect blaster bolts. They are both high enough level that they get the special ability, ergo get the defense bonus ergo are deflecting attacks.

 

[Don Carnage]

Re: Re: About Yoda'n All

Well, thank you for commenting. As you'll read, I disagreed. Also, do you currently play Star Wars with the revised rules? Just curious.

In a word: yes.

Let's face it: everyone and their dog is going to want to play Jedi. I think the Guardian/Counselor dichotomy helps create a bit stronger distinction that a jedi can use from the outset.

This is a mechanics issue, not a thematic one. If you could point me to instances from the movies that support there being Consulars and Guardians, that would be what I'm looking for.

Yoda disproves the idea that there are two classes. Qui-Gon Jinn also. Yoda's skills indicate he's the master swordsman (which he isn't according to his write-up -- Dooku, Windu are better), while Jinn should be an adept diplomat also. But he isn't. Because Guardians don't get Diplomacy.

Which of course begs the question: Why were two Guardians sent to negotiate? I can just imagine how this would have gone on in game.

GM: You're being sent to negotiate a treaty to end a blockade around a small planet.
Qui-Gon's Player: But neither of us has diplomacy.
GM: (Sinister smile) I know.

Originally posted by Psion:


Re: Yoda's saber skills: Yoda has 10 levels of Jedi Master, which has the same BAB advancement as a Guardian, and is a 20th level character. There is good reason to hold his lightsaber skills in high praise.

Yoda's skills weren't just in high praise. They were the standard by which to judge. Flipping through the Revised Rules, we see that Mace Windu could take him, Dooku shouldn't have had any problems, and even Kenobi would have done well.

Why? This is not consistent with the movie, so why was it done?

We can thank those happy levels of Jedi Consular.

Originally posted by Psion:


BUNK.

When you get an extra roll against incoming attacks, what really happens? You are less likely to get hit. The Deflect SQ does the same thing now, only simpler, without tedious roll-offs.

And mace Windu and Qui-Gon have plenty of chances to deflect blaster bolts. They are both high enough level that they get the special ability, ergo get the defense bonus ergo are deflecting attacks.

I'm unsure of what you're saying.

Yes, Windu's and Qui-Gon's levels would give them the ability, the mechanic to deflect and redirect.

Now. Reading the rules, we find that to redirect a blaster shot, to deflect it back, the incoming attack needs to miss by 5. Windu's defense is 27. It kicks up to 30 with the deflect SQ up, higher if ol'Mace uses Enhance Ability, but let's stick with 27.

27 means that an opponent needs to roll a 22, 23, 24, 25, or 26 to hit Mace. A 20 is an automatic hit. A Battledroid has a +2 to ranged attack. Therefore, Mace has no (zero) chance to reflect a blaster shot fired by a Battledroid. Neat, no?

Yet, he does it in the movie. How does this make sense, again?

 

[Aaron L]

What you just delineated says that Mace has no chance of redirecting* a shot from a battle droid which has a certain bonus to hit. What if the battle droid has a +15 to hit? Mace will be able to redirect it's blaster bolts if it rolls 12 through 16.

*As for deflecting, anytime that a blaster bolt doesn't hit a Jedi it can be said to have been deflected. It's either deflect or dodge for a Jedi, and I doubt they dodge everything. The deflect special ability is just a bonus they get to defense if they devote extra effort to watching those blaster bolts, and redirecting is an extra special thing they can do.

As for the problems with Yoda, there is a very simple explaination. Yoda is far above 20th level. He is 900 years old, there is no way he is on the same level as Mace Windu. However, listing characters as being over 20th level is a big no no for with D20 system games except for Forgotten Realms, and so his stats were crippled to make him fit into 20 levels. He should be 40+ IMO.

 

[Psion]

Re: Re: Re: About Yoda'n All

Well, thank you for commenting. As you'll read, I disagreed. Also, do you currently play Star Wars with the revised rules? Just curious.

(sigh)

Unfortunately, we have some new players and the GM is basing the version of the rules we use around what is supported by PCGen. But it is supposed to be supported in the next two releases. I cannot wait, because jedi are done SO much better in RCRB.

Yoda disproves the idea that there are two classes. Qui-Gon Jinn also.

And just how does he do that?

Sorry, if you are going to say X proves Y, state why. Yoda proves nothing. Yoda is not a proof.

Yoda's skills indicate he's the master swordsman (which he isn't according to his write-up -- Dooku, Windu are better),

Uh, just how do his skills indicate that? IIRC, it was Obi-Won that referred to Yoda as a master swordsman... and compared to him, he is.

while Jinn should be an adept diplomat also.
But he isn't. Because Guardians don't get Diplomacy.

Okay... I think Amidala put it best when she stated why the jedi were there... to FORCE a settlement. The jedi are not statesmen.

Yoda's skills weren't just in high praise. They were the standard by which to judge. Flipping through the Revised Rules, we see that Mace Windu could take him, Dooku shouldn't have had any problems, and even Kenobi would have done well.

Why? This is not consistent with the movie, so why was it done?

I take issue with the writeups of some of the characters. Yoda should have had some serious battlemind and enhance ability. However, WHY it was done is this: it was consistent with everything we had seen before. Yoda was a more contemplative jedi with great power in the force. Counselor/Master seemed apt.

However, the movie was not complete when RCRB was being written, and the advance information that the authors had was limited. (And as I have said, I still think counselor fits, I would just rearrange the skills.)

It's nice to see you think you could do it better. But as Larry Niven once said, any damn fool can predict that past.

Now. Reading the rules, we find that to redirect a blaster shot, to deflect it back, the incoming attack needs to miss by 5.

Ah. That hiccup.

I thought you were just parroting Doctor Doom's "we need a roll" carnard.

In some sense, I agree. I would say it has a chance to hit if it would hit you sans dodge, dex, and defense bonuses vice the arbitrary "5 less". (I think I will recommend that as a house rule).

That said, the ability does say you can voluntarily lower your defense, which serves the same function.

Therefore, Mace has no (zero) chance to reflect a blaster shot fired by a Battledroid. Neat, no?

Only if you ignore the "voluntarily lower" part.

Yet, he does it in the movie. How does this make sense, again?

By reading the rules and applying all of them, not just the ones you wish to read.

 

[Krail Stromquism]

Ok,

now please dont look at the movie and start trying to make these comparrisons. Lets face it, RPGers didnt write these movies (they wouldve been WAY better if they had).

My players about crapped themselves when they saw that almost all their force powers switched from CON based to CHR! whats up with that?

At this point Ive just given the option, 1st Ed or Revised? All players stuck with the 1st Ed. I certainly like the revised but things are a bit wacky here and there, typos, rules changes, and that sort of thing.

As far as Jedi go, Dont you think they shouldve just had the Jedi class go up to say 10th level, and then have a bunch of PrCs like Consular, Guardian, Master, Sith Lord and so on? That would help explain the Padawan/Apprentice process better. Once the Jedi completes his Padawan training he is free to do as he will, continue with straight Jedi training and become a knight or take up a PrC.

anyway,

I love all you guys! You rock!

 

[Don Carnage]

Expecting More

There's that quote I love: Arguing on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

A point where ol'Psion is wrong.

Originally posted by Psion:
That said, the ability does say you can voluntarily lower your defense, which serves the same function.

Rereading the rules, it says you can elect not to use the Deflect bonus to defense against ranged weapons to get a better chance at the deflect.

So. You cannot voluntarily lower you defense. Defense is static. You can choose not to add the Deflect bonus to your defense, but you can't lower your defense (pg. 61, if you don't believe me).

The example of Windu's defense given above was without the Deflect ranged bonus added in. So, again, there is no way for Mace to deflect a Battledroid's blaster shot back at him. We see this in the movies, we cannot do it with the mechanics.

That, my friends, is a failure.

Originally posted by Psion:
Only if you ignore the "voluntarily lower" part.

Only if you read the rules.

Some more thoughts.

Originally posted by Psion:
I take issue with the writeups of some of the characters.

Hey, me too.

Originally posted by Psion:
In some sense, I agree. I would say it has a chance to hit if it would hit you sans dodge, dex, and defense bonuses vice the arbitrary "5 less".

Hey, we agree that Deflect, as written, has failed.

So, if the character write-ups don't work and deflect doesn't mimic the movies, why should we support this product? Those are two very big problems. We're talking about examples of iconic characters being mistaken, and a major, vital ability of the Jedi not working.

And those are just the points we can agree on.

Originally posted by Psion:
Sorry, if you are going to say X proves Y, state why. Yoda proves nothing.

So, I should state why Yoda is proof that the classes are erroneous. Which I did. That he's referred to, and shown, as the best swordsman. Which he isn't. According to the rules.

And you don't have to state why Yoda proves nothing.

Hee. You know what they say, give someone enough rope.

Originally posted by Psion:
However, the movie was not complete when RCRB was being written, and the advance information that the authors had was limited.

I'm happy that you can be so forgiving with your money. I wish I could be. I'm not sure how much you paid, but I spent 40 dollars on my rulebook, rules that at least in two cases we agree are flawed. I'm glad you can swallow the 40 bucks, but I expect more for my money.

On to happier things!

Originally posted by Krail Stromquism
At this point Ive just given the option, 1st Ed or Revised? All players stuck with the 1st Ed. I certainly like the revised but things are a bit wacky here and there, typos, rules changes, and that sort of thing.

As far as Jedi go, Dont you think they shouldve just had the Jedi class go up to say 10th level, and then have a bunch of PrCs like Consular, Guardian, Master, Sith Lord and so on? That would help explain the Padawan/Apprentice process better. Once the Jedi completes his Padawan training he is free to do as he will, continue with straight Jedi training and become a knight or take up a PrC.

My thoughts mirror your players, Krail. With too many things being just off about the Revised Rules, I'm glad, happy even, sticking with the Original Rules. I wish I had known this before buying the Revised Rules, but then I wouldn't have such wonderful events to compete in the internet's version of the Special Olympics.

That last idea is a stellar one. Make a Jedi Knight core class that goes to 10th level, and Prestige Class the rest. I love that idea.