StarWars d20
- Thread starter Master of Monkeys
- Start date
Don Carnage said:
"Theme and story, drama and epic" have absolutely nothing to do with whether Jedi Bob can deflect blaster bolts back at Soldier Sam.
If you don't like specific mechanics, fine. Pretending that specific mechanics have anything to do with drama, storyline, etc is laughable.
dpdx
Explorer
It ain't just the RCRB, though...
A lot of my concern about whether this system would be usable (and I really, really want it to be) rests with whether or not the supplemental materials (NJO, DSS, Secrets of [insert planet here], etc.) will mesh with the new rules, or be updated/rewritten so that they do.
But that doesn't change my mind as to whether or not the RCRB is better than the original. Improved is improved. And if/when Wizards improves the RCRB, whether it's with an errata page, a downloadable supplement, a Star Wars "Sage Advice" -type rule arbiter, or a revised RCRB, that'll be improved, i.e., better, too.
A lot of my concern about whether this system would be usable (and I really, really want it to be) rests with whether or not the supplemental materials (NJO, DSS, Secrets of [insert planet here], etc.) will mesh with the new rules, or be updated/rewritten so that they do.
But that doesn't change my mind as to whether or not the RCRB is better than the original. Improved is improved. And if/when Wizards improves the RCRB, whether it's with an errata page, a downloadable supplement, a Star Wars "Sage Advice" -type rule arbiter, or a revised RCRB, that'll be improved, i.e., better, too.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
Furn_Darkside said:
*cough* D6 *Cough*
Why must Jedi be balanced? They sure aren't in the movies IMO. I suppose it's to stop powergamers from walking all over weak DM's. But if you aren't playing a "power" game, why would a player care if one class was more powerful than another? That's one thing I liked about the old 1e setup. If a class is more powerful than another you have higher requirements to take it, and it advances slower. I've got the OCR and I think it's good, but there is nothing in the RCR that would make me drop another fourty bucks on it, I'll wait for the R-RCR that will be out in a few years before contemplating a rules upgrade.
Furn_Darkside
First Post
Flexor the Mighty! said:
*cough* D6 *Cough*
Why must Jedi be balanced?
Salutations,
Oh, I would actually agree with you (and if it wasn't for all the pain killers I am on, I might be able to do so coherently). The Jedi are usually the superior to all others- J. Fett (with the power of fanboy behind him) is one of the few times you see a non-Jedi put up a good fight against a Jedi.
I don't see a need for all classes to be "balanced" with each other. However, don't be surprised if you rarely see anything other then a Jedi.
What I should have said is that it seems a primary concern in game design of d20 is class balance. Most of the classes have their moments to shine.
Argh I apologize for babbling.. I am tired and don't even like Star Wars. heh.
FD
Skywalker
Adventurer
I agree that the iconic stats are not always acurate. However the rules still work fine. The jumps are covered by Burst of Speed which either character could have under the rules. The iconic characters are WotC best guess based on sometimes incomplete information. These discrepancies don't effect the ability of the rules to reflect what is seen on the movies and so I don't see why you would need to make house rules for these unless you were going to use one these characters in your game (which I thought would be unlikely).
Well the first thing is that the focus on the ability of Jedi to Deflect attacks is a misleading. They aren't very common in the movies. For example, in AotC there are only about 2 successful deflect attacks one from Mace and one from Obi Wan. Most deflects are for defensive purposes and followed up by a lightsaber attack. This is how the Jedi fight.
Accordingly I don't have a big issue with a rule that produces a result that is closer to what is seen in the movies. It is much better than the extremely powerful "deflect all the time" equivalent in the OCR.
I do note that if a PC doesn't actively dodge attacks (effectively standing still) then their effective Dex is 0 which provides a -5 to Def. Add the fact that you can decide not to use Deflect (defence). From what I saw in AotC, many Jedi often stood pretty still to gauge blaster attacks so to improve their ability to reflect the attacks. IRC this would make Mace's defence about 22. A Battle Droid with a +2 to hit could be deflected. Its not a perfect by any means but it does result in a much better reflection of the movies which I prefer.
There may also be arguments that the droid received a bonus from attacking Mace from behind but I can' think of any.
Except the rules on moving living beings with the Move Object skill.
Well this is your opinion. However I find that the Scoundrel is still the best class for a scoundrel style PC so their is no optimisation. TScoundrels get twice as much skill points than a Tech Specialist. So T Specs are good specialists but don't have the broad base. Plus Tech Specialists don't get WP (blaster pistols)
No.
Leaving aside the obvious comment that it is not always in character, Dissipate Energy is not as effective as many make it out to be. It is like unreliable armour as it only works for WP. By this stage your Jedi has no VP and can not use the Force.
Dissipate Energy is a "nonflashy" feat that you take to save your ass. Personally I prefer proactive feats that allow my Jedi to not get whooped in the first place like Burst of Speed. I would consider grabbing the Armour Proficiency Feat (light) and have reliable armour against all forms of attack rather than Dissipate Energy.
Don Carnage
First Post
Some Replies
Another day, another dollar.
Then I'd never, ever want to play in your game.
If I have in my head images from the movies about super-leaping Jedi, reflected shots, and powerful Force abilities, and I'm confronted by a system that leaves a gap in what I can do mechanically vs. what I see on-screen, I'm going to be a frustrated player.
To think that a frustrated player doesn't have any effect on storyline and drama is laughable.
Hence, I would never, EVER want to play in your game if my frustrations, my hopes and desires don't have a bearing on my GM.
In short, run Luke, run.
Now, the idea about iconic characters is that if they can't adhere to the rules, how am I going to be able to? Are people comfortable telling their players that no matter what they do, the things seen in the movies are unattainable? Anakin's jumps, Obi-Wan's reflections, Qui-Gon's mowing down of battledroids just isn't going to happen?
No, not everyone can be the Emperor or Darth Vader, but making all of what we see in the movies out of reach is bad. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing.
I've seen this a lot: willingness to forgive WotC and J.D. in particular for having spotty information. I'm not so forgiving. They had the information, I feel, they could have gotten it. At the very least, they could have delayed the book until after Episode II. They didn't, and we're here.
They messed up, call them on their mistake and demand better answers. It's our right as consumers, my right as a patron. I demand things for my money. You should too, then putting out a book with obvious flaws wouldn't happen (or happen far less). See what I mean? I can't gloss over mistakes because that's accepting bad workmanship.
Last, I answered this above, but I'll repeat it here. The iconic characters are examples. They're the opportunity to let the system shine, to show that all things are possible, all Star Wars is open and laid bare for our gamers. They're the gateway, the doors by which people gain interest. Do you think that people wander into Star Wars without preconceived notions of how they want their Jedi to be?
Therefore, it's a great failure to not have them correct. They could have included so much with the iconic characters, examples on what to do in order to do the amazing jumps of Anakin and Obi-Wan, to deflect the shots like Jinn and Windu, to thrash their opponents like Yoda and Boba, to outwit and maneuver like Han and Leia. It was their golden chance!
And they blew it.
I disagree with most things here, so I can't comment to much. I just don't see it being uncommon. After all, Luke wasn't that skilled of a Jedi and he didn't have trouble deflecting/reflecting multiple shots (see barge, Endor).
Which is a nice idea, until you think about this: In Episode, Dooku slashes and defeates Anakin, and conveniently picks up Anakin and drops him on his unconscious friend, Obi-Wan. Pretty absurd, and an explanation I can't buy.
About feats and Dissipate Energy.
That's what it comes down to, preference. Not too much to talk about. I like having Dissipate Energy as something to help save my behind when I get it into too much trouble, where running isn't an option.
Another day, another dollar.
hong said:
Then I'd never, ever want to play in your game.
If I have in my head images from the movies about super-leaping Jedi, reflected shots, and powerful Force abilities, and I'm confronted by a system that leaves a gap in what I can do mechanically vs. what I see on-screen, I'm going to be a frustrated player.
To think that a frustrated player doesn't have any effect on storyline and drama is laughable.
Hence, I would never, EVER want to play in your game if my frustrations, my hopes and desires don't have a bearing on my GM.
In short, run Luke, run.
Now, the idea about iconic characters is that if they can't adhere to the rules, how am I going to be able to? Are people comfortable telling their players that no matter what they do, the things seen in the movies are unattainable? Anakin's jumps, Obi-Wan's reflections, Qui-Gon's mowing down of battledroids just isn't going to happen?
No, not everyone can be the Emperor or Darth Vader, but making all of what we see in the movies out of reach is bad. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing.
I've seen this a lot: willingness to forgive WotC and J.D. in particular for having spotty information. I'm not so forgiving. They had the information, I feel, they could have gotten it. At the very least, they could have delayed the book until after Episode II. They didn't, and we're here.
They messed up, call them on their mistake and demand better answers. It's our right as consumers, my right as a patron. I demand things for my money. You should too, then putting out a book with obvious flaws wouldn't happen (or happen far less). See what I mean? I can't gloss over mistakes because that's accepting bad workmanship.
Last, I answered this above, but I'll repeat it here. The iconic characters are examples. They're the opportunity to let the system shine, to show that all things are possible, all Star Wars is open and laid bare for our gamers. They're the gateway, the doors by which people gain interest. Do you think that people wander into Star Wars without preconceived notions of how they want their Jedi to be?
Therefore, it's a great failure to not have them correct. They could have included so much with the iconic characters, examples on what to do in order to do the amazing jumps of Anakin and Obi-Wan, to deflect the shots like Jinn and Windu, to thrash their opponents like Yoda and Boba, to outwit and maneuver like Han and Leia. It was their golden chance!
And they blew it.
I disagree with most things here, so I can't comment to much. I just don't see it being uncommon. After all, Luke wasn't that skilled of a Jedi and he didn't have trouble deflecting/reflecting multiple shots (see barge, Endor).
Which is a nice idea, until you think about this: In Episode, Dooku slashes and defeates Anakin, and conveniently picks up Anakin and drops him on his unconscious friend, Obi-Wan. Pretty absurd, and an explanation I can't buy.
About feats and Dissipate Energy.
That's what it comes down to, preference. Not too much to talk about. I like having Dissipate Energy as something to help save my behind when I get it into too much trouble, where running isn't an option.
Re: Some Replies
How immature.
Don Carnage said:Then I'd never, ever want to play in your game.
If I have in my head images from the movies about super-leaping Jedi, reflected shots, and powerful Force abilities, and I'm confronted by a system that leaves a gap in what I can do mechanically vs. what I see on-screen, I'm going to be a frustrated player.
To think that a frustrated player doesn't have any effect on storyline and drama is laughable.
How immature.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
Why? Because he wants to play a Star Wars game where his Jedi PC is like one would be in the movies? I can sure understand what he is talking about.
I don't know why there are so many apologists for whatever WOTC does that is screwed up. They need a D20 fanboy forum for those who think WOTC can do no wrong. Of course all the traffic would be in that forum so maybe it's not a good idea. Maybe they should have titled it a "Star Wars like game that isn't really reflective of what Star Wars is on the big screen". Of course they would have had to set the type so small it would have been hard to pick it out on the rack.
I don't know why there are so many apologists for whatever WOTC does that is screwed up. They need a D20 fanboy forum for those who think WOTC can do no wrong. Of course all the traffic would be in that forum so maybe it's not a good idea. Maybe they should have titled it a "Star Wars like game that isn't really reflective of what Star Wars is on the big screen". Of course they would have had to set the type so small it would have been hard to pick it out on the rack.
Aaron L
Hero
I still don't see how the game doesn't work like the movies. Character write ups are wrong, I saw that the first time I saw the book. That doesn't mean the system is wrong. How many times did Luke deflect a blaster bolt into someone else? Why is using Move Object an absurd explaination for a force push? It is possible under the rules. Everything that is seen in the movies can be done under the rules.
[BTW, I despised WEG's system, and all of their D6 games, and am very happy with the current D20 version.]
[BTW, I despised WEG's system, and all of their D6 games, and am very happy with the current D20 version.]
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