StarWars d20

[Aaron L]

Obviously, the battle droids in the movie had more than +2 to hit. Droids can be programmed with levels, and certainly a group plotting to overthrow the Republic would have the best droids available to defend them.

And the classes are not erroneous, the level assigned to various characters is erroneous. Make Yoda a Jedi Consular 20/Jedi Master 10 and see how he turns out.

 

[Psion]

Re: Expecting More

So. You cannot voluntarily lower you defense. Defense is static. You can choose not to add the Deflect bonus to your defense, but you can't lower your defense (pg. 61, if you don't believe me).

Since I am at work right now, I'll have to trust you... something I am at ill ease of doing.

So, if the character write-ups don't work and deflect doesn't mimic the movies, why should we support this product?

I'll give you two:
1) The rules for the character classes, Jedi included, are MUCH better than the prior version.
2) The rules for armor are likewise much better.

Those are two very big problems. We're talking about examples of iconic characters being mistaken,

Why the emphasis on "example"? At any rate, no, I do not find the sample characters to be a telling fault in the product. For the purposes of making characters and playing the game, the rules work fine. Like I said, I would change Yoda if I ever had a reason to use those stats (which I don't forsee.) But I, like you, have the benefit of having seen the movie. The authors of the RCRB didn't, at the time.

Further, you assert that Dooku could "easily" handled Yoda. Where the hell do you get that from? Did you not notice the contrast of light side versus dark side force points at that level?

Sorry, I can see some of your points, but the rest are rather out there and rely on the onlooker having an incomplete picture of how the system works.

Which makes me wonder: have YOU ever played by the RCRB? (Or the basic book for that matter, as force points are essentially unchanged between the two.)

And those are just the points we can agree on.

Not so hasty. I would change the "threshold" to use the ability... the fundamental idea still works IMO. Likewise you say Yoda proves the classes are wrong, where I just think Yoda proves Yoda is wrong.

I see molehill problems. You see mountains.

So, I should state why Yoda is proof that the classes are erroneous. Which I did.

Which is why you are incorrect. Yoda doesn't proves classes are wrong. Yoda proves Yoda is wrong.

That he's referred to, and shown, as the best swordsman. Which he isn't. According to the rules.

1) "Is referred to"? That is a perspective from the point of view of characters in the movies.
2) "Shown". There is nothing that was shown that wouldn't be handled by shifting skill points to battlemind and enhance ability and the way that force points work.

I'm happy that you can be so forgiving with your money. I wish I could be. I'm not sure how much you paid, but I spent 40 dollars on my rulebook, rules that at least in two cases we agree are flawed. I'm glad you can swallow the 40 bucks, but I expect more for my money.

Poor you. But dare I say you are getting hung up on some rather easily surmounted snags in an otherwise outstanding set of rules?

(Aside from which, the counselor/guardian dichotomy was in the first book... if you knew that and had a problem with it, and you bought the next book anyways without seeing if it had changed, you have nobody to blame but yourself.)

 

[Don Carnage]

The fundamental difference lies here:

Originally posted by Psion:
I see molehill problems. You see mountains.

The exceptions are what we see. I'd rather not have cart around house rules about Force Push, Move Object, Deflect, and iconic character revisions. I'd rather not.

It's preferable to deal with the armor rules (substituted from the Revised rules) and vehicle systems (substituted from the Revised rules).

In short, the Revised rules have become a burden, onerous to use, ponderous to comprehend, and baffling in design. J.D. and crew have failed, producing a book that answered some questions, but brought more.

You think different, and you're allowed. I wish I could enjoy the Revised Rulebook, I wish I could discount its problems like you, but I can't. I feel I paid 40 dollars for help, and got nothing I wanted.

One last thing.

Originally posted by Psion:
Why the emphasis on "example"? At any rate, no, I do not find the sample characters to be a telling fault in the product.

I feel it's a fundamental problem. If the examples, the very thing the rules are designed to emulate (the characters) are wrong, if they cannot and do not match the source material, then this means that any character I make will also never match the movies.

I.E. my Jedi will, taking the RCR as written, be able to push people off a ledge like Maul did to Obi-Wan. My Jedi will never be able to snatch metal bits from a conveyor belt and fling them at Geonosians like Anakin did. I won't be able to deflect shots like Mace did.

Hence, the emphasis. The characters are supposed (read: imperative) to be a showcase for how well your system works to represent the movies. It's the trophy case. People should look at these iconic characters and think, 'Man! That's just what they could do in the movies!'

Anything else is a failure of the worst kind.

 

[Aaron L]

Yes! Ignore my points some more!

 

[Psion]

You think different, and you're allowed.

Gee, thanks for your permission.

I feel it's a fundamental problem. If the examples, the very thing the rules are designed to emulate (the characters) are wrong, if they cannot and do not match the source material, then this means that any character I make will also never match the movies.

Gah! I hate this kind of mentality. Do you want to tell me just how they were supposed to know exactly every little gimmick that was thrown into the movie with incomplete foreknowledge?

The screenwriters have the luxury of being able to allow the characters to do whatever seemed like it would look cool at the moment vice sticking witha pre-conceived list of capabilities. The bible for what yoda can and cannot do likely didn't account for some things that the director and screenwriter came up with... they just make up whatever they feels like would be appropriate.

RPGs try to bridge the gap between freeform and boardgame, but you have to let it. That is why there is a GM who can make ajudications, house rules, and extrapolate from the book.

my Jedi will, taking the RCR as written, be able to push people off a ledge like Maul did to Obi-Wan. My Jedi will never be able to snatch metal bits from a conveyor belt and fling them at Geonosians like Anakin did.

D20 is a flexible system... you should use it as such. If someone wants to try something different and it isn't in the book, make a determination and go with it. Are you honestly telling me that you wouldn't let darth maul use his move object skill to push Obi-Wan off a ledge?

If you want to run your RPG rules as if they were a board game, and don't get RPG results, don't be surprised. I would recommend that someone with your "perfect emulation" mentality should avoid games based on franchises, because those RPGs that are are just going to be a continual disappointment to you.

 

[Psion]

Yes! Ignore my points some more!

Oh, I agree with your points. Like I already said, his "case" is based around an argument that betrays an incomplete understanding of the rules... I was referring to force points at that juncture, but the fact robots can have higher level could also explain it. That said, I agree that the "five point" margin rule is shaky, so I didn't want to agree too emphatically.

I have already ceded that Yoda doesn't match the capabilities ascribed him in the movies, and your take would be one alternative.

 

[Don Carnage]

Yes! Ignore my points some more!

Fine! I will!

Don't make me!

Now, that that's settled.

While you can make battledroids more effective by giving upping their base attack, it still doesn't answer the core problem. That is: A high level Jedi will never get the opportunity to deflect a shot back on an attacker who can't beat his defense by 5 or less.

That's why the rule is broken as written. While a 2nd Soldier trying to tussle with a 16th Jedi is unfair, what would serve as an object lesson (hitting the soldier with his own blaster bolts) becomes impossible with the rules. Upping that soldier's base attack for the purpose of hitting the Jedi isn't the answer.

I'm sure you thought of that, too, so I'll just move along.

Star Wars has a max level limit of 20, which I like a great deal. It's an end cap, a limit on where the insanity can end. I dig it.

Still, allowing an exception for Yoda isn't a bad idea, as long as the caveat is that it's for Yoda alone. He would be as devastating as seen in the movie, true. I'll think about it more.

Originally posted by Psion, RCR Loyalist Commitee Member
Are you honestly telling me that you wouldn't let darth maul use his move object skill to push Obi-Wan off a ledge?

That's beside the point, of course. The fact that I have to make up a house rule on the spot is irritating, frustrating that I spent money on a book that I have to cover the holes in. I spent money so I didn't have to make my own rules.

Are you happy that so much needs to be arbitrary? I'm not, I can't be.

What happens when I lurch into someone else's game. Do I bring along a questionairre asking about how they fixed certain things? What about a new player, fresh from buying the RCR and thinking it's fantastic, only to get sucked into my game and finding that the rules don't portray the movies at all.

What the designers have made is a game that adheres to its own mechanics. That's all. While I decry the fact that the rules don't portray the movies well, Psion gives excuses on how the rules work. They work if they're not trying to portray Star Wars.

That I can't do things in the movies without listless edicts from on-high is why I cannot ever support the Revised Rules. If you're happy with sheets of cobbled rules and assembled judgements, I'm not. I'm after rules that are there when I need them, invisible when I don't. I'm after theme and story, drama and epic, everything that isn't the Revised Rules.

I'm happy you like the Revised Rules. I wish you would see them with a bit clearer vision, but that's the issue here. Do I support the Revised Rules over the Original Rules? No. A million times no. They're sloppy and broken, flailing and failed.

Naturally, there's the tendency online to think that because I don't agree with your opinion, that I don't like your opinion, that I don't like you. Of course that's not true.

I have no problems with your mentality. Just how you use it.

 

[Psion]

Naturally, there's the tendency online to think that because I don't agree with your opinion, that I don't like your opinion, that I don't like you. Of course that's not true.

I don't beleive I ever suggested you didn't, did I? To this point, the nature of the dispute has been over our difference of opinion. Of course mocking me by calling me a RCR loyalist commitee chair" is a step in that "getting personal" direction.

 

[Psychotic Dreamer]

Originally posted by Don Carnage
I'm happy you like the Revised Rules. I wish you would see them with a bit clearer vision, but that's the issue here. Do I support the Revised Rules over the Original Rules? No. A million times no. They're sloppy and broken, flailing and failed.

You feel they are sloppy and broken. For the groups I play with they work quite well and I know many others that are very happy with the rules in the revised book.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

What the designers have made is a game that adheres to its own mechanics. That's all. While I decry the fact that the rules don't portray the movies well, Psion gives excuses on how the rules work. They work if they're not trying to portray Star Wars.

You must be a real peach to be with when seeing a movie converted from a book.

No game is going to match any license precisely- and in the case of Star Wars, they can't have it match the movies precisely. The designers need to put rules to the few details found in the movies. There is little laid out to the formal progression/training of Jedi- so they have to fill in the blanks.

At the same time, they have make the Jedi semi-balanced with non-Jedi.

If you are going to demand a system that reflects these movies, then I doubt you will ever see it in d20.

For example: The newer movies have the Jedi combats involving lots of maneuvering between two combatants, but the d20 system does not give much reason to bother.

And if AoO are used, it offers a reason to move as little as possible.

As for house rules... wow. I have yet to meet a group that does not tweek a games rules to fit their preferences. 2nd edition d&d usually required note books to be exchanged.

Oh well. Always save your receipt.

FD