Stat Block Problems w/ Hordes of the Abyss

[Garnfellow]

I was curious enough to Google for the specific Jesse Decker quote I had in mind:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=1836115&postcount=63

So two years ago Wizards realized that quality control was enough of a problem that they went and hired 2 new staffers. I think a lot of us were expecting things to get better after that post. I sure did, but I'm just not seeing it.

It's a huge shame, because WotC is putting some otherwise great books on the street. My copy of Hordes of the Abyss* came in the mail today, and I got a chance to breeze through it over lunch. The non-mechanical stuff was mind-blowingly good. I read just a couple of Abyssal site descriptions and immediately wanted to use BOTH in my regular game. But I also found 2 more bugs in the stat blocks. There's so much good stuff in this book, it's infuriating that the stat blocks couldn't have been better.

*The first WotC book I've bought since Libris Mortis. Now MMIV is officially on my ignore list.

 

[delericho]

My First quibble:

Hit points and total number of Hit Dice are listed, but not the HD die type and not the CON bonus to Hit Points. Thus an entry might read:
110 (10Hit Dice).

This has been the case for some time. It's a bit annoying, but working out the totals isn't hard - Outsiders get a fixed hit die size, and the Con bonus can be gained easily enough from the listed score.

Next:
The amount of Power Attack auto calculated into a creatures attack routine is not listed. Thus while normally we would have an entry like this :
* Power Attack for 5 points is already included in Stat Block

We Instead get this:
* Power Attack is already included in Stat Block

If this is accurate, it's an absolutely disgraceful presentation of information. We're talking about 6 characters on the page, that make a huge difference to the utility of the creature. (I have lousy luck on d20's, and my players optimise for AC. Consequently, my monsters use Power Attack sparingly, if at all. So, I need to have the unaltered numbers, or to know the modifier, so I can use the monster and provide a challenge.)

Here is the worse part. By forcing me to do the math on my own it only made it abundantly clear how inaccurate the Stat Blocks are.

I tend not to worry about stat block errors. However, I do expect at least reasonable accuracy. However, I haven't seen FCI yet, so I can't in good conscience comment further.

 

[Garnfellow]

I say all this because I'm wondering if perhaps WotC is trying to multi-task their editors. Do they actually have people whose job it is just to comb through stat blocks for errors? Or is the same guy looking for a comma splice and an extra 5hp? If it's the latter then I'm not surprised there are so many errors. I see people here on ENWorld posting stat block errors the day that a book hits shelves. If WotC really has people who just edit stat blocks (or even stat blocks and rules both) then the problems are just inexcusable and whoever edited this book should get the boot. If it's just a couple of guys (or one guy) who gets the whole manuscript and is told "Find all the errors." then I don't blame him (or them) for making mistakes. Well, I do, since they're getting paid not to... but it's a lot more understandable

Michelle Lyons, a former WotC editor, has a post somewhere on EnWorld where she offers great insight to the editing process. Long story short, I think one poor editor has to wrangle stat blocks and everything else.

 

[Sammael]

I never bought MMIII because of statblock errors. In fact, I had the opportunity to buy it for $15 today, and I still didn't want it. I'm not getting MMIV for different reasons (there is no way I'd pay for a book which I know in advance will contain 25 creatures I will never, ever use - the Dragonspawn).

Statblock errors in monster-heavy books suck. Again, I'm not buying FC1 for the demons stats, but it would have been nice to see a relatively error-free product. I'm sure the blame lies with the editors and the developer (who was the developer for the book, BTW?).

 

[James Jacobs]

As a bit of an aside, would it be possible for the statblocks from the adventures to be included in the web supplements for each issue?

This is something I've been considering for a while... I just haven't really had a chance or the time to figure out how much time it would take to implement, or how best to do it.

So yeah... it's certainly possible.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

This is something I've been considering for a while... I just haven't really had a chance or the time to figure out how much time it would take to implement, or how best to do it.

So yeah... it's certainly possible.

Great to hear. I'd really love to see it happen.

 

[Vascant]

I must be the only odd one here because I have enjoyed the complexed nature of d20. So it makes you think, I don't think I would play it if it didn't. I will say the stat blocks from the Hordes of the Abyss were different then those you see from Dungeon Mag so even without Mr Jacob's comment I already figured an editor got involved and decided to "Fix" some things.

With NPC Designer I have worked on it for 20 months just focusing on perfecting stat blocks, it can be a challanging task to say the least.

 

[Urizen]

I don't think a_game_ should be complicated.

I don't know about anyone else, but I just want to have fun and role-play. Game mechanics should facilitate ease-of-use. They should be in the background, speeding up moderation rather than slowing it down. I know many of you out there are Gurus. You know the rules backwards and forwards, but, while I know enough to make my games run smooth I certainly don't know every single rule in the D20 system.

I think True20 has done a great job of stream-lining the d20 system, making it more Role-play friendly, and not RULE-play intensive.

 

[Cam Banks]

I've just discovered Paizo nicely includes updated writer's guidelines for Dungeon magazine, finally. Very helpful!

http://paizo.com/writersguidelines/dungeon_writer_guidelines.pdf

Still not sure which line to stick a remorhaz' heat special ability, though. Seems a little more than an SQ but not quite a Special Action.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Pants]

My First quibble:

Hit points and total number of Hit Dice are listed, but not the HD die type and not the CON bonus to Hit Points. Thus an entry might read:
110 (10Hit Dice).

I really don't see that as being much of a problem. I've never had a game where the creature's bonus hp from Con was an important detail, and figuring out how many hp a creature loses from Con damage or some other effect really doesn't depend upon it.

Next:
The amount of Power Attack auto calculated into a creatures attack routine is not listed. Thus while normally we would have an entry like this :
* Power Attack for 5 points is already included in Stat Block

We Instead get this:
* Power Attack is already included in Stat Block

Ouch, that's bad. It's not like listing the amount of PA really takes up that much room, but then, I'm not a big fan of having a creature's default attacks include PA. I'd much prefer having two separate attacks, one with PA and one without. That's what I do.

Secondly the errors are bad, real bad in some cases. I stopped reading at Baphomet. I had a Louis Black meltdown moment when I realized that despite the Stat Block listing Baphomet as using Power Attack; Power Attack was not added into his damage, as well as the +2 from his magic weapon. I also noticed a problem with the Goristo as well.

It's really quite sad that WotC has been unable to correct a problem that they've been well aware of... for at least 2 years now. I'm sure that switching to the new statblock hasn't helped, but really... they should either cut down on the editor's messing with statblocks in general (Which is where a large number of problems come from, I'm sure) or just hunker down and fix the problem

Again this is from a cursory, and incomplete glance, I expect to find more errors as I get further into the more complex Stat Blocks of the Demon Lords.

Perhaps I am overreacting, but I just find it a slap in the face to not have a crucial, and easily provided piece of information neglected, for what I can assume be fractions of a cent worth of ink per book.
The D&D community has grown to expect a listed Grapple Bonus, I think the amount of Pre Factored Power Attack and Hit Dice type is on par in importance.

I've just discovered Paizo nicely includes updated writer's guidelines for Dungeon magazine, finally. Very helpful!

http://paizo.com/writersguidelines/dungeon_writer_guidelines.pdf

Still not sure which line to stick a remorhaz' heat special ability, though. Seems a little more than an SQ but not quite a Special Action.

Cheers,
Cam

That is very handy. I've been using the new statblock myself for a while and it's been an absolute pain trying to figure where things are supposed to go. Aside from that, it works great in play, much better than the 'old adventure statblock' (that thing was a cluttered mess). I still don't like it being used in monster books.