Stat-boosting spells too powerful?

[Al'Kelhar]

In my immediately past campaign, characters could not have more than one buffing spell on them at any one time, and could not have more than one cast on them in any 7 day period without there being a small chance (10% cumulative per additional casting) of suffering a 1 point ability drain at the end of the next spell's duration. Kinda like a natural side-effect of having magically enhanced abilities for so long. This meant that buffing spells were used conservatively and were shared around the party.

I then thought about reducing buffing spell duration to 1 min/level, thus making them single-combat effective spells, but never instituted this rule in game play.

In my current campaign there are no such restrictions on the spells, and have even put them into the druid spell list (why druids don't get spells named after the attributes of animals is beyond me), and got rid of those silly buffing spells out of MotW. Since the PCs are only 1st level still, it's too early to tell whether the spells will be abused - which is ultimately the concern with any allegedly "broken" spell.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Such tactics only work when:

1. The players know that they're attacking an enemy and when they're going to do it.

2. Their enemy won't make a pre-emptive strike against them in the middle of the night (after they used all their heavy hitting spells for long term buffs.

3. The enemy doesn't regularly use targetted greater dispellings or Mordenkeinen's Disjunctions (real magic items get a saving throw--spell effects don't).

The last point is why +x abilities aren't the be all and end all of weapons too. One targetted Greater Dispelling and your armor class drops ten points, your attack and damage both go down by five, etc.

I have DM-ed a group up to 16th level, and what I saw was this:

When they wanted to attack an enemy fortress / dungeon, they would cast all 1 hour/level spells (such as double-empowered stat-boosters, magic vestment and greater magic weapon) before going to bed the day before and then memorize new spells in those slots for the day that they were attacking. To prevent this tactic, I have reduced the duration of all those spells to 30 min./level in my current campaign. Other than this change in duration, I do not feel that there is anything wrong with the stat-boosters.

Magic vestment and greater magic weapon are another issue. The presence of these spells makes it useless for PCs to create magic weapons and armor with more than a +1 enhancement bonus. Instead they will create magic weapons and armor with a +1 enhancement bonus and loads of special abilities (like Fortification for armor and Flaming for weapons) and then use magic vestment and greater magic weapon to increase the enhancement bonus to +5 whenever they need this. 16th level casters have more than enough 3rd level spells that they can burn for this purpose.

-- Retan

 

[kreynolds]

...but maybe it was the spells cast on four differenent PCs, which lasted for three gaming sessions, which drove our DM over the edge.

I wouldn't have a problem with him snatching away my buff spells, so long as he lowers all the monsters ability scores by 1d4+1, of course.

 

[incognito]

I ahve no problem with stat boosters, but I DID have a problem with greater magic weapon, and magic vestements, for exacty the reasons retan stated.

NO one wanted a +3 sword. Every one wanted a +1, keen, ghost touch sword. One GMW later, it was +3. At 9th level, with one feat, as a L5 spell, it can last 27 Hours.

Dispels are tough to count on, especially now that you can only cast one spell a round with Haste.

The likelihood of you spell being dispelled is only 45% for an equal level caster. Worse if the PCs find something like a "Bead of Karma"

I have a custom feat that increasaes Dispel Checks by +2, I am considering whether this will also allow the "cap" to be broken (+12 rather than +10, ofr a typical dispel)

 

[kreynolds]

I have a custom feat that increasaes Dispel Checks by +2, I am considering whether this will also allow the "cap" to be broken (+12 rather than +10, ofr a typical dispel)

Spell Girding should cancel that out quite nicely.

 

[retan]

Such tactics only work when:

1. The players know that they're attacking an enemy and when they're going to do it.

2. Their enemy won't make a pre-emptive strike against them in the middle of the night (after they used all their heavy hitting spells for long term buffs.

3. The enemy doesn't regularly use targetted greater dispellings or Mordenkeinen's Disjunctions (real magic items get a saving throw--spell effects don't).

The last point is why +x abilities aren't the be all and end all of weapons too. One targetted Greater Dispelling and your armor class drops ten points, your attack and damage both go down by five, etc.

2. After around 8th level, my players never slept in an ordinary inn. They would fly far out to sea, cast a rope trick, get everyone inside the rope trick and pull the rope after them. In this fashion, they made it impossible for any enemies to find them. (If the enemies scried them, they would only see the characters and the interior of the rope trick) How would you have the enemies launch a preemptive strike against a party sleeping in this fashion?

3: My monsters typically started every combat by trying to dispel as many of the enhancements of the PCs as possible. The PCs would counter this tactic by casting several copies of the same spell at each item and PC. The dispels would have to get all the copies to cancel the effect, and the change of getting any one spell with a greater dispel for a caster of equal level is 50%. I hadn't used any foes that was capable of casting mordenkainen's disjunction, although I would have if the campaign had continued.

-- Retan

 

[Clay_More]

Well, my group uses a similar tactic as well. When ever the spell caster gets another spell level, he finds a spell with a long duration and casts it on himself. That way, he is partially protected if someone casts a normal dispel that simply tries to dispel any enchantments on the person starting with the highest level spell. And as for the rope trick, it sounds like something my players could do as well, even though they prefer the Flying, Invisible carpet kinda sleeping instead. The only difference is my druid which changes into a burrowing creature and sleeps beneath the ground protected by an alarm.

 

[Vargo]

Some things to remember:

Any spells cast in the 8 hours preceeding a resting period count against the spells that you can use for the next day. I'm not 100% certain on that (don't have my PHB with me) but if that's right, then they have to cast spells with a >16 hour duration in order to get the slot back. Much more if they want it to be effective for more than an hour or two.

On dispel magic: I allow Spell Focus (Abjuration) and Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) to be used as (stacking) bonuses on the Dispel Magic checks, and allow it to break the +10/+20 max limits.

On resting: Your players sleep in a rope trick over the ocean? Here's a solution:

Two mages - both with Teleport and a Quickened Dispel Magic.

One teleports both of them to the rope trick, and fires off a quickened dispel. The other held his action until the teleport takes place, then fires off his quickened dispel, and then his teleport, to take them both out of there.



Suddenly, with no availible targets, the party is in midair, while most of them are asleep.

SPLASH!

Oh, and for the guys flying on an invisible flying carpet? I hope you don't roll over in your sleep...

 

[Clay_More]

hehe, good idea. Every night demands a Reflex saving throw or you fall down and die. Or, you could create special magical carpets that have sidebars, just like childrens beds.