Stat this up # 1

[freyar]

I don't understand.

Shroomlings are not entangled by plants affected by entangle. However, they are not immune to magically manipulated impeded movement, so entangle will still affect them just as it affects any other creature in the region that is not entangled.

 

[Cleon]

I don't understand.

Shroomlings are not entangled by plants affected by entangle. However, they are not immune to magically manipulated impeded movement, so entangle will still affect them just as it affects any other creature in the region that is not entangled.

I'm having difficulty following you.

The entangle spell causes plants in its area of effect to wrap themselves around creatures, causing them to be entangled. The "Freedom from Plants" SQ I've proposed causes them to be immune to entanglement from plants, so the entangle spell does not affect them. It even specifies such in its description.

Yeah, but if we're giving them immunity to plant entanglement we should still modify the Woodland Stride a bit, shouldn't we, since doesn't an entangle spell create "overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion".

e.g.:

Freedom from Plants (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle).

We are still discussing both "immunity from entangling plants" and "unconstrained movement through woods" SQs aren't we? It sounds like you've forgotten about the former Freedom from Plants SQ and are only talking about a Druid-style Woodland Stride for the latter.

 

[freyar]

Freedom from Plants makes them immune to entanglement by plants, including from the spell entangle. It does not, as written, make them immune to impeded movement by plants, even if caused by the entangle spell. So I don't see why we need to modify the druid's Woodland Stride to call out that they are still impeded by entangle. Catch my drift?

Maybe the easiest thing is to make them immune to entanglement or impeded movement by plants, magically manipulated or mundane.

 

[Cleon]

Freedom from Plants makes them immune to entanglement by plants, including from the spell entangle. It does not, as written, make them immune to impeded movement by plants, even if caused by the entangle spell. So I don't see why we need to modify the druid's Woodland Stride to call out that they are still impeded by entangle. Catch my drift?

Erm, the impeded movement in question is one of the effects of the entangled condition, it's not separate from it. If it's immune to the condition I don't see why it should be partly affected by it as well. Permit me to quote the SRD:

Entangled
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

I'm fine with a Shroomling's movement being impeded by "non-entangling" plant obstacles, like a wall of thorns, but I just can't parse the logic as to why it would be impeded by something it is immune to.

Maybe the easiest thing is to make them immune to entanglement or impeded movement by plants, magically manipulated or mundane.

Sure, I'd be fine doing something along those lines.

Would you be prepared to rough out a proposal.

 

[freyar]

I'll trade you quote for quote. Here's the SRD spell entangle with emphasis added:

Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

It's the impeded movement highlighted in red that I'm talking about, which is clearly not due to being entangled. Unless you're arguing that the shroomling doesn't make a Ref save, so that the red text doesn't apply (though I'd say they just automatically succeed at their save).

Or we could go with the enhanced version:

Freedom from Plants (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle). A shroomling may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at their normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement does not affect a shroomling's movement. However, a shroomling does take damage as normal from plant growth that has been magically manipulated to injure creatures (such as a wall of thorns).

 

[Cleon]

I'll trade you quote for quote. Here's the SRD spell entangle with emphasis added:

I suspected we were just having a communication error. It'd have been a lot easier if you'd just quoted that in the first place.

Allowing for "impeded movement without entanglement" was what I was aiming to cover with the modified Woodland Stride proposals.

Woodland Stride 2 (Ex): A shroomling may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at their normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement does not affect a shroomling so long as the effect does no damage. However, plants that are magically manipulated to injure creatures, or damaging plant spells such as wall of thorns, do affect shroomlings normally, including impeding their movement.

I still like the idea of them being slowed by damaging movement-impeders, but am OK with the most recent Freedom from Plants.

Freedom from Plants A (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle). A shroomling may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at their normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement does not affect a shroomling's movement. However, a shroomling does take damage as normal from plant growth that has been magically manipulated to injure creatures (such as a wall of thorns).

Separating them into two SQs does still seem to be a good idea, of only for clarity's sake:

Immunity to Entangling Plants (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle).

Woodland Freedom 1 (Ex): A shroomling may move through any sort of mundane undergrowth (natural thorns, briars, etc.) at their normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement does not affect a shroomling's movement. However, a shroomling does take damage as normal from plant growth that has been magically manipulated to injure creatures (such as a wall of thorns).

Woodland Freedom 2 (Ex): A shroomling may move through any sort of mundane undergrowth (natural thorns, briars, etc.) at their normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement will only affect a shroomling's movement if the effect causes damage, such as a wall of thorns) spell.

What do you think of the idea of letting Nookie pick one of the options and moving on? We seem to be spending way to long on this point, and it's not even something I'm that bothered by!

 

[freyar]

I actually like keeping it all as one ability (if we're going with the enhanced version), since that keeps all of it together. Anyway, I'm more than happy to let Nookie decide. Whew.

 

[Cleon]

I actually like keeping it all as one ability (if we're going with the enhanced version), since that keeps all of it together. Anyway, I'm more than happy to let Nookie decide. Whew.

I'm fine making it a single ability, we could split it in two paragraphs for clarity:

Freedom from Plants [Non-Impeding] (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle).

Shroomlings may move through any sort of mundane undergrowth (natural thorns, briars, etc.) at their normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement does not affect a shroomling's movement. However, a shroomling does take damage as normal from plant growth that has been magically manipulated to injure creatures (such as a wall of thorns).​

or:

Freedom from Plants [Partially-Impeding] (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle).

Shroomlings may move through any sort of mundane undergrowth (natural thorns, briars, etc.) at their normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement will only affect a shroomling's movement if the effect causes damage, such as a wall of thorns spell.​

It just reads easier.

 

[freyar]

Either way. Let's let [MENTION=83645]Nookie[/MENTION] decide.

 

[Nookie]

I'm fine making it a single ability, we could split it in two paragraphs for clarity:

Freedom from Plants [Non-Impeding] (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle).

Shroomlings may move through any sort of mundane undergrowth (natural thorns, briars, etc.) at their normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement does not affect a shroomling's movement. However, a shroomling does take damage as normal from plant growth that has been magically manipulated to injure creatures (such as a wall of thorns).​

or:

Freedom from Plants [Partially-Impeding] (Ex): A shroomling is immune to entanglement by plants, including plant monsters (such as an assassin vine) or magic that cause plants to entangle creatures (such as the Druid spell entangle).

Shroomlings may move through any sort of mundane undergrowth (natural thorns, briars, etc.) at their normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Brush and overgrown areas that has been magically manipulated to impede movement will only affect a shroomling's movement if the effect causes damage, such as a wall of thorns spell.​

It just reads easier.

Partly Impeding looks better to me