State of the mystic

the Jester

Legend
Having a Psion class is a good call.

I agree with [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] that a lot of past psionic archetypes could easily be ported to subclasses of preexisting classes:
* Psychic Warrior: Fighter Subclass
* Soul Knife: Monk or Rogue Subclass
* Wilder: Sorcerer Subclass
* Ardent: Bard or Cleric Subclass
Agreed- in fact, I have long since homebrewed three out of four of those.
 

Cyan Wisp

Explorer
Personally, I would make the lion's share of psychic abilities be simlar to a warlock's invocations (just a lot more of them) while having cantrip-esque at-will abilities that can be scaled as desired with a point-based mechanic.
This really appeals. Just thinking of literary psionic characters, they have a talent or two, not a vast range of powers. Why not hyper-specialised always available powers? As they level, their specialty improves manyfold. Azzy's idea about invocations makes more sense than spell/power points for me. Even more so if implemented kind of like the 3.5e warlock with psychic attacks instead of blasts. No slots. At-will thematic powers and augmentations.

I've never quite liked the implementation of psions as "just another wizard" with all of the versatility that entails. "I'm a telekineticist! But I also can do all the stuff that every other psion can do."
 

tglassy

Explorer
I think that's what they're trying to do with the cantrip thing. Your cantrips are your skills and abilities, and you only have a couple. "Spells" are ways to reshape the cantrip. Also, it looks like they're concentration will be used for it, so like my earlier example with the teleportation cantrip, you actually keep concentration on the cantrip, and as long as you have concentration on it, you can cast it at will. Supposedly, they'll also be able to concentrate on two things at once, which no one else can do.
 

Giltonio_Santos

Adventurer
An "everything uses a spell slot model" does not differ that much from the "everything is a power" model from 4e. I don't like it. I believe the system is solid enough to sustain different approaches to resource management, the evolution of power and how to access it. One of the great things about 3.X D&D is that they were willing to try different things within that framework. If WotC's choice is to leave that potential at the table for someone else to use, fine. Maybe we'll get 5e psionics from Kobold, Dreamscarred, or even MCG.
 

Yaarel

Adventurer
An "everything uses a spell slot model" does not differ that much from the "everything is a power" model from 4e. I don't like it. I believe the system is solid enough to sustain different approaches to resource management, the evolution of power and how to access it. One of the great things about 3.X D&D is that they were willing to try different things within that framework. If WotC's choice is to leave that potential at the table for someone else to use, fine. Maybe we'll get 5e psionics from Kobold, Dreamscarred, or even MCG.
My problem with the Mystic is, it is a halfcaster who fails to access high level spells. Actually, slightly worse than a halfcaster, since its highest level spells are roughly slot level 4.

I need options for full-psionics. For example, the Wish spell can exemplify the power of mind over matter − the psychic wills desire into reality − suitable for any high level full-psionic.
 

Yaarel

Adventurer
Having a Psion class is a good call.

I agree with [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] that a lot of past psionic archetypes could easily be ported to subclasses of preexisting classes:
* Psychic Warrior: Fighter Subclass
* Soul Knife: Monk or Rogue Subclass
* Wilder: Sorcerer Subclass
* Ardent: Bard or Cleric Subclass
In my case, a Wizard psionic subclass as long as it is competitively potent, can probably fulfill my need for a 3e Psion.
 

Immoralkickass

Explorer
I strongly disagree with porting the Psionic Subclasses into the preexisting classes, for the same reason a Paladin is not a Fighter subclass, and Sorcerer is not a Wizard Subclass. Psionics is different from Wizard, like way different from Sorc v Wiz, so it should be its own class.

I'd like to see some unique design in the Mystic class, like maybe the Awakened subclass gets up to 9th level powers, while the base class is still a half caster. Soulknife needs multi-attack too, and their own Disciplines.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
In my case, a Wizard psionic subclass as long as it is competitively potent, can probably fulfill my need for a 3e Psion.
I would not prefer using the spellbook wizard for the 3e Psion. It seems like the Sorcerer would be a more appropriate fit. :erm:
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
I strongly disagree with porting the Psionic Subclasses into the preexisting classes, for the same reason a Paladin is not a Fighter subclass, and Sorcerer is not a Wizard Subclass. Psionics is different from Wizard, like way different from Sorc v Wiz, so it should be its own class.
Assuming you mean its own classes in plural, I absolutely agree with you.

But I made my suggestion under the assumption we aren't getting a Psionic Warrior base class, a Soul Knife base class, an Ardent base class....

Trying to cram all those character concepts into the same class would be just as unworkable as just having the Wizard class, with Fighter, Rogue and Bard merely subclasses.

I'd much rather build the Psionic Warrior as a Fighter subclass than a Mystic or Psion subclass.

But you're entirely right. Assuming you mean classes in plural I absolutely prefer your idea!
 

tglassy

Explorer
I think Psion should be it’s own class, but making the Psychic Warrior into a Fighter subclass just seems cleaner. Why recreate the wheel? We have a subclass system, we have the Eldritch Knight as a base, do something similar for the Psychic Warrior and be done. It gains all the fighting prowess of the fighter, plus 1/3 of the psionic power of the Psion. I believe that’s really what it was in the first place. MAYBE it was more of a half caster, but besides being granted Psionic powers and power points, the Psychic Warrior was a pure fighter.

So I say any hybrid Psion should just be a subclass. The Pure Psion would be those with abilities that are uniquely Psion, such as the Nomad, the Shaper and the Telepath. Those should be subclasses of a Psion class.
 

Aldarc

Adventurer
I strongly disagree with porting the Psionic Subclasses into the preexisting classes, for the same reason a Paladin is not a Fighter subclass, and Sorcerer is not a Wizard Subclass. Psionics is different from Wizard, like way different from Sorc v Wiz, so it should be its own class.

I'd like to see some unique design in the Mystic class, like maybe the Awakened subclass gets up to 9th level powers, while the base class is still a half caster. Soulknife needs multi-attack too, and their own Disciplines.
I agree that the psion should be different from the wizard, but the argument becomes more challenging with other cases, especially with the idea of cramming all psionic archetypes into a singular mystic class. The psychic warrior, for example, fills an incredibly similar niche as the eldritch warrior. So it would be possible to put a psionic twist onto the fighter chassis to create the psychic warrior. Likewise, the soulknife always had a fundamental identity problem since it was essentially a one-trick pony class. And when you look at what the soulknife does, a lot of the same results could be achieved by making it either a subclass of the monk or rogue, especially after 4E made the monk a psionic class and showed that a monk could potentially do the soulknife's niche better.
 

Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
The Archivist subclass of the Artificer seems like a preview of what a Psionic subclass is like. They have a cantrip-like ability that can be enhanced by spending spell slots.

I'm fine with the more spell slot based psionics, because I don't want psionics to go so far off the existing system, they get rejected by most groups because they're too different.

I'm interested in also seeing how they would develop psionic subclasses of all the other classes. Ardent was often an odd class by itself (we need a psionic healer niche it had when originally designed), but Ardent as the College of Ardor Bard it might work.
 

Samloyal23

Explorer
Thank the gods for that. Trying to cram every psionic trope into one and the same class is stupid and clumsy design.

It would be so much cooler if they designed psionics to be an bolt-on mechanic to replace spellcasting for selected characters, laying a foundation to allow Psion to be a Wizard subclass, Psionic Warrior to be a Fighter subclass and so on.

That is: create a rule for power points (or manifestations, or whatever) but don't base it in one single class. Then have the subclass dole out the PP.

In fact, just say "psionic characters use the spell point variant of the DMG, only we're calling them power points" and let the existing spell slots be as-is. That's the direct and simple answer to the question "so I'm a psionic wizard, what am I gonna do with my spell slots?" That is, the answer is: "you only think you get spell slots, but in reality you get spell points that we call power points."

Boom, done, no rambling rules explanations necessary.

In cases where a character gets spell slots from the subclass and not the class psionic subclasses of that class can get PPs directly.

Then we can finally stop worrying MMearls will muck up this core design too, and start worrying about the details. I'm convinced they plan to give the Psionic Warrior lots of cool powers, only to ruin them right away with Concentration, for instance.

YUCK!!!
 

Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
I think there can be a psionic subclass for just about every class, though Ranger and Druid are perhaps the hardest to think of ones conceptually.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
I think there can be a psionic subclass for just about every class, though Ranger and Druid are perhaps the hardest to think of ones conceptually.
Well, I want two things:
1) Psionic subclasses of more than one base class
2) Each such subclass being justified on its own merits

In other words, while I can see a Psionic subclass added to some of the PHB classes, I certainly am not arguing for a Psionic subclass added to ALL of them.

If WotC can't find a credible niche for "a druid, but with psi powers" then there should simply be no Druid subclass in the book.

On the other hand, "a fighter, but with psi powers" sounds exactly like the Psychic Warrior, so...
 

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