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State of the mystic

In one of the threads about the latest version of the artificer, I complained about the lack of a newer iteration of the psionic class. After taking some time to read the 2017 version again, though, it feels right to me; not perfect, but right. I like the mechanics and I believe they are distinct enough from spellcasting to make me consider it a worthy attempt. I'm no expert on balance, though, and we have not put it to test in our game. So, I'm wondering what's the opinion of people who have actually playtested it, or at least checked the math behind the class. If the Sunday announcement happens to be a Dark Sun campaign guide including a finished version of the mystic, would that make you happy? If no, is there any specific reason why?
 

Inchoroi

Explorer
My biggest quibble for all the versions of the mystic, save perhaps the first one, are that they are far too broad thematically. If a mystic can take the role of a ranger, fighter, monk, and wizard, its way too good. I've yet to see any homebrew that addresses all the issues that it has, unfortunately. I keep meaning to write my own, but I simply don't have the time...
 
The Mystic UA a while back was a good start, but it was something that needed to be nerfed, badly.

Specifically, it needed to be for focused in it's design, and not be as jack-of-all-trades as it was. The main reason why I consider the Lore Bard to be probably the best single class in the game is because of how general it is with Additional Magical Secrets and the extra skills, in addition to everything already Jack-Of-All-Trades-y that the Bard normally is.

With the recent thing with Happy Fun Hour and disseminating some of the Mystic subclasses into other classes, it would allow the Mystic (or I guess Psion now) to be more general, in both theme and gameplay.
 

The Myopic Sniper

Registered User
My impression from the Mike Mearl's Twitch design show was that they are going to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch with what they are now calling the Psion. I imagine if they go the directions that he outlined there that the class will be a spell caster with spell slots (the DM can use the DMG spell point option if they want something that looks like psionic power points) as well as cantrips that can be additionally upscaled by spending spell slots/points.

I don't expect to see much more on this front until after the Artificer is complete or Mearl's Twitch show comes back. The Mystic seemed interesting but I get the impression that it wasn't hitting the survey approval numbers that would support further development of such an intensive design when simply treating the class as a reflavored caster does everything it needs to mechanically and flavorwise.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
start from scratch with what they are now calling the Psion
Thank the gods for that. Trying to cram every psionic trope into one and the same class is stupid and clumsy design.

It would be so much cooler if they designed psionics to be an bolt-on mechanic to replace spellcasting for selected characters, laying a foundation to allow Psion to be a Wizard subclass, Psionic Warrior to be a Fighter subclass and so on.

That is: create a rule for power points (or manifestations, or whatever) but don't base it in one single class. Then have the subclass dole out the PP.

In fact, just say "psionic characters use the spell point variant of the DMG, only we're calling them power points" and let the existing spell slots be as-is. That's the direct and simple answer to the question "so I'm a psionic wizard, what am I gonna do with my spell slots?" That is, the answer is: "you only think you get spell slots, but in reality you get spell points that we call power points."

Boom, done, no rambling rules explanations necessary.

In cases where a character gets spell slots from the subclass and not the class psionic subclasses of that class can get PPs directly.

Then we can finally stop worrying MMearls will muck up this core design too, and start worrying about the details. I'm convinced they plan to give the Psionic Warrior lots of cool powers, only to ruin them right away with Concentration, for instance.
 
I imagine if they go the directions that he outlined there that the class will be a spell caster with spell slots (the DM can use the DMG spell point option if they want something that looks like psionic power points) as well as cantrips that can be additionally upscaled by spending spell slots/points.
I expect a psion with spell slots to appease players who are waiting for psionic rules in the same way the beastmaster ranger appeases players who want a warrior pet... :p
 

Aldarc

Explorer
Having a Psion class is a good call.

I agree with [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] that a lot of past psionic archetypes could easily be ported to subclasses of preexisting classes:
* Psychic Warrior: Fighter Subclass
* Soul Knife: Monk or Rogue Subclass
* Wilder: Sorcerer Subclass
* Ardent: Bard or Cleric Subclass
 

Psyzhran2357

Villager
I expect a psion with spell slots to appease players who are waiting for psionic rules in the same way the beastmaster ranger appeases players who want a warrior pet... :p

They can go die in a hole; if the Psion and the psionics subsystem comes out as bloated as the Mystic was, that thing is getting slam-dunked into the trash can. Gith PCs and psionic monsters have been using componentless spells for the past 5 years and those work fine.
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
If the psion ends up just being a componentless spellcaster using the same spells then it can also go in the trash. What's the point? The game doesn't need another full caster class that only differs in memorization and casting flexibility. I really don't need WotC to do a crappy sorcerer re-skin for me. If it's not different and interesting there's no point in publishing it.

Adding a psion class is different than adding psionics of course - you can use point based casting to add dark sun style psionic flavour as additional abilities no problem.
 

tglassy

Explorer
I kind of like where Mearls was going with it in his Happy Hour, with the Psion having cantirps that he upgraded with Spell Slots. That could be very useful, and have a lot of utility. Like having a cantrip that allowed a short, five-ten foot teleport, but using a spell slot and a specific "Spell" to upgrade it to 20 or 30 ft, or to add a damage effect, or to add invisibility at the end or something.

I think the main problem right now is to figure out where Psions fit in the game. Every class fits somewhere, with some classes combining roles in unique ways. Fighters fight, Rogues are skills, Clerics heal and Wizards cast spells. Barbarians, Rangers, Sorcerers and Druids are the “Nature” version of those, basically, and can fulfill those functions but do so slightly differently. (These are of course oversimplifications, and don’t include the subclasses, which further mixes things, but bear with me.)

Then you have the hybrid classes. Paladin are Fighter/Clerics, Monks are Fighter/Rogues, Bards are Rogue/Wizard/Clerics, and potentially Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Clerics, so all around backup. Warlocks are…well, whatever they want to be, depending on the build, but they can't be all of it at once. I guess they could be considered the “Fighter/Wizard”, what with being the only class beside Fighter that naturally gets four attacks that are separate, and each add the ability score to damage (Eldritch Blast).

Artificer seems to fill a good niche, being that they make magic weapons that can help the party, something no one else can do. They are like Rogue/Wizards, which we don’t have above, unless you make a specific Warlock build.

So we’ve got:
Combat: Fighter/Barbarian
Skills: Rogue/Ranger
Casting: Wizard/Sorcerer
Healing: Cleric/Druid

Hybrids:
Combat/Skills: Monk
Combat/Casting: Warlock
Combat/Healing: Paladin
Skills/Casting: Artificer
Skills/Healing: ??
Casting/Healing: ??
All-in-one: Bard

Psions were always dependent on the build, and were always versatile. They could be combatants or casters. We don’t really need another “More Different Wizard”. The playtest was so over general, I literally played four different characters from it, a Striker, a Healer, a Caster and a Fighter. It could be any of the four main classes, and could mix and match wherever it wanted. If they’re going to do Psion, they need to make it do things no one else can do. We don’t have a Cleric/Wizard or a Rogue/Cleric yet. Maybe the Psion would fit the Cleric/Wizard slot well, focusing on healing and casting together, though I don’t know how different that would be from just being a Cleric, or a Divine Soul Sorcerer.

Then again, they’re a lot like monks, in that Monks focus on their own inner strength to enhance their combat utility, and Monks would be Combat/Skill, so having Psions, who are monks who focus more on increasing the mind’s powers, be the Skill/Healing would be interesting. Healing being buffs and debuffs, in this case. Sort of the Cleric version of the Monk.

I don’t know, I’m spitballing here. I’m just saying it needs to fit it’s own niche and do it’s own thing, like the Artificer has.
 

SkidAce

Adventurer
I always used the theory of psioncs being the "old magic/science" , and my race of ancient ones used it in place of magic.

So I need a system that allows for psionic fighters, "wizards" and at least healers.
 

77IM

Explorer
I feel like psionics should, as you increase level, become more and more meta-gamey. The level 20 capstone is that you realize you're just a character in a role-playing game.
 
I would like the psychic (whatever the name) to be like the caster version of the barbarian: you are a so-so caster, until you supercharge your brain for a short time like the barbarian supercharges his/her body. I am not sure exactly what that would look like though.
 

Gammadoodler

Villager
I would like the psychic (whatever the name) to be like the caster version of the barbarian: you are a so-so caster, until you supercharge your brain for a short time like the barbarian supercharges his/her body. I am not sure exactly what that would look like though.
Wouldn't this just be the sorcerer (more or less)
 

Lalato

Villager
The Mystic in my game was overpowered... and quite literally outclassed every other class in the game. Looking forward to whatever the next iteration is.
 

Azzy

Explorer
Personally, I would make the lion's share of psychic abilities be simlar to a warlock's invocations (just a lot more of them) while having cantrip-esque at-will abilities that can be scaled as desired with a point-based mechanic.

I'd like to see them bring back psicrystals and astral constructs, though. And psionic sub classes for fighters, rogues, monks, etc.
 

Parmandur

Adventurer
I expect a psion with spell slots to appease players who are waiting for psionic rules in the same way the beastmaster ranger appeases players who want a warrior pet... :p
Yeah, in addition to trashing the test Mystic and starting from scratch, they made it pretty clear that sticking to spell slots was one of the big takeaways from that playtest. Who knows where they will go with a Class in particular, but it will a spell slot user.
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
Yeah, in addition to trashing the test Mystic and starting from scratch, they made it pretty clear that sticking to spell slots was one of the big takeaways from that playtest. Who knows where they will go with a Class in particular, but it will a spell slot user.
If they're a spell slot user like the Warlock that could still be cool (so minimal but flexible slots and a whackload of special abilities). Anything else would probably suck. I guess what I'm saying I'd rather see a reskinned warlock than a reskinned sorcerer or wizard. Give them three psionic paths at 3rd (fighty/sneaky/casty or whatever) and call it a day. I would be all for the whole class feeling vaguely monk-like too.

I do see why they might want to leave the points system behind - it's an ugly mechanical match with anything else in 5e.
 
Wouldn't this just be the sorcerer (more or less)
Naw, the sorcerer is the caster monk: I spend a point to do this, I spend a point to do that, my player complains that I don't have enough points.....

Honestly, 2 minutes of "spell rage" would work well for a hypothetical 6e sorcerer class, but to me it doesn't fit with the 5e sorcerer, so I figure the gimmick has to go to a new class, and psion/mystic is what we have to work with.

Further thought: I should specify that I think 2 minutes of "spell rage" feels like a class ability, not a subclass one.
 
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