State of the RPG Industry

So, to Erik Mona and Mike Mearls:

Where do you see the d20 industry going in the next 1-2 years? Or even 3-5 years?

Some have hypothisized that several d20 companies will go out of business and that to survive long-term, a d20 company only has to weather the current storm.

If that's the case though, once the market "pares down", wouldn't that then create an entry point for more new companies (and thus a never-ending glut of products)?
 

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2d6 said:
I have to wonder about that. Have you looked at the current prices of DnD books? take a gander at amazon, the least expensive current book is $29.95 with many in the $35-$40 range. The days of $15-$20 books seem to be over and I know I for one am alot more picky about what I'm willing to pay; and the state of the economy has no influence on that decision. @ $40/book, how long do you think the high-end buyers are going to last?
I'm more interested in good, expensive, big books now than I am in a never-ending stream of cheaply produced and cheap to buy small books. Then again, maybe I always have been; my hardback d20 collection is three or four times the shelf space as my softback section is.

I've gotten a lot more picky about what I buy as d20 has matured; I no longer feel the need to pick up 75% of what is produced. That is partly because I have so much product already that my needs are all met; the stuff I'm likely to buy today is the stuff that I didn't know I needed until it was made and blew me away with how cool it is. That's much more likely to be a big expensive book than a small one.
 

WizarDru said:
"the Abe Vigoda of Gaming"? When'd you get that distinction? If it has something to do with how many kids are living in your household, you have my pity. :)

Oh god, I should not be legally allowed to deal with kids unless I marry I very responsible woman...

Anyway, the title is self-inflicted. There are a lot of people who tout themselves as the X of gaming, where X is someone important or famous. Usually, it's Harlan Ellison. I chose good 'ole Abe because he was in The Godfather and it kind of makes fun of the whole X of gaming thing.

WizarDru said:
Anyhow, how wide do you see the divide between the average ENWorld poster and the standard gamer, Mike? I'm not disagreeing, necessarily, I'm just curious what your take is.

I think people on EN World are much more experienced and into the hobby than the average gamer. The like D&D enough to spend at least part of their on-line time here rather than somewhere else. RPGs are likely their #1 pastime. I think there's a significant percentage of gamers (> 50%) who see D&D as one of several things they do. The dedication makes people here more likely to see advice, basic ideas on how to do X, and similar commentary as useless. It's probably one of the few venues where you can say something like "If you've been gaming for 5 years you know that..." and have a significant majority get what you're talking about.

Contrast that with RPG.net, which is far more divorced from the market reality. At that site, you tend to have a lot of burnt out or very high-level White Wolf fans, which gives you a huge bias in how people react to games.

So, I think EN World provides useful feedback, but you have to keep its biases in mind.
 

mearls said:
Anyway, the title is self-inflicted. There are a lot of people who tout themselves as the X of gaming, where X is someone important or famous. Usually, it's Harlan Ellison. I chose good 'ole Abe because he was in The Godfather and it kind of makes fun of the whole X of gaming thing.
Yeah, I used to call myself the Don Knotts of gaming. Somehow the title never stuck, though. Probably because gamers at large have never heard of me.
 

DaveMage said:
So, to Erik Mona and Mike Mearls:

Where do you see the d20 industry going in the next 1-2 years? Or even 3-5 years?

Some have hypothisized that several d20 companies will go out of business and that to survive long-term, a d20 company only has to weather the current storm.

If that's the case though, once the market "pares down", wouldn't that then create an entry point for more new companies (and thus a never-ending glut of products)?

I think that in the short-term, we're going to see companies doing more settings and new games. My sense is that companies see generic fantasy as largely done. The 2nd edition back catalog has been exhausted. No offense to Mongoose, but I giggled when I saw the announcement of Quintessential Fighter 2. The idea well is running dry, or at least that's the perception.

I think in the next 5 years, we're going to see the d20 hobby solidify as a wholly separate entity from the White Wolf hobby and the general RPG hobby. I think it already is separate in many ways, but as the current crop of new gamers moves through D&D, IMO a dwindling percentage of the already small proportion who move on to non-d20 games will end up migrating to them. As more games come out that competently handle different types of games, there'll be less and less of a reason for d20 gamers to bother with non-d20 games. I think there's plenty of design room waiting to be explored in d20, and as that space is explored it leaves less room for well-designed non-d20/WoD games.

The one wild card lies in WotC. If they release 4ed and make significant changes to the core gaming engine, they face a huge problem. Third party publishers can easily continue to produce support material for 3.0/3.5, possibly creating a rift in their market. There's also the chance that, if WotC has some success with Eberron and goes back to the TSR way of doing things, that the entire industry could go haywire. I think that if WotC started producing lots of books, everyone but WW and AEG would take a big hit. Though they'd eventually choke to death on their own excess a la TSR, even a failed D&D book would have more sales and bigger draw to distributors and retailers than any d20 book short of those two publishers.

The thing about a d20 "glut" is that if you step back and look at it in terms of the RPG industry in general, I think it's business as usual. Look at how many World of Darkness books WW squeezes out every month. Look at an issue of Gametrade or scan the gaming news sites. There's tons of non-d20 books coming out every month, and there always has been. The only reason that we see d20 as a glut is that it's new, and it forces us to look at an endemic characteristic of gaming in a novel light. I think we'll always have 3 or 4 major publishers, whose ranks change rarely, about a dozen mid-list publishers whose ranks turn-over on a roughly 5 to 10 year cycle, and dozens of smaller publishers who have tremendous turn over. There is some movement between those three tiers, but not too much.

So, while companies may fold and new ones show up, the industry as a whole remains stable. In many cases, while company names change the people behind them remain the same.

So, that's how I see it. d20 has stabilized, perhaps at a point south of what people expected, and its a bigger hobby than WW gaming or everything else.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
Yeah, I used to call myself the Don Knotts of gaming. Somehow the title never stuck, though. Probably because gamers at large have never heard of me.


i have. i don't think you give yourself enough credit. you are at least the Gomer Pyle/Jim Nabors of gaming.

i prefer to be called the Louie Prima of gaming. David Lee Roth ain't got nothing on me. ;)
 

The Silver Crossroads interview with Green Ronin is pretty enlightening:
http://www.silven.com/adnd.asp?case=show&id=183

Q) Besides the trends you have already mentioned, what trends to you see happening recently in the d20 industry?

I think a lot of people are trying to find their niche - something they can offer that other people are not offering. Not everyone can obviously succeed at that. There are a bunch of companies that are staffed by well-meaning, nice people that don't really have something to offer the community at large that other companies don't do better. That's just how it is with life, I guess.

The marketplace is so competitive now that companies that have gotten a lot better than they used to be and are putting out better books than they were a year ago, they are still seeing their sales decline. That certainly must be frustrating, "Wow, my books look three times better than they did a year ago, yet they are selling half as much!" I think we are probably going to see several companies go out of business or radically restructure what they do. Some of them may leave d20 entirely.

The thing about the role-playing business is that it does not take a lot for a company to keep going. You can take the meager profits that you make off of one book and roll them into the next book and hope that sells better. When a a card game company has a big bomb; they are just wrecked. But a role-playing game company can continue to shuffle along with a horrible half-life such as showing up for GenCon when everyone thought they were out of business.

A lot of people have predicted that there is going to be a big crash as there was with collectible card games in 1995, and because of the economics of RPGs, that is just never going to happen. You are never going to see 12 companies go out in a six month period. Unless people were incredibly foolish by printing 25,000 copies of something... the economics are just different.


Q) Will we see more imprints in the d20 industry?

It's entirely possible. That's how Green Ronin ended up with print publishing the stuff by the Game Mechanics, because all the Game Mechanics guys are fellas I used to work with at Wizards. When they were laid off, they started the Game Mechanics. They knew enough about the industry to know that if they started a d20 company this late in the game, their sales were not gonna be enough. No matter who they were, eventhough these were guys who worked on the core D&D books and designed d20 Modern. Unfortunately, that sort of stuff does not translate to sales as much as designers wish that it did. They were savvy enough to know that they were better off making a deal with Green Ronin because we have a track record and we could sell more of their books. That has been a very good deal for us (Green Ronin) because I know those guys and I have worked with them before and they do really top notch stuff. I knew that I could rely on them to put out products that were of a level of quality commensurate with our other products.

That relationship has been very fruitful for both parties - it gets their stuff in print and they can sell more than they otherwise would, and it allows us to expand our books into new directions like d20 Modern. We were not planning to do a whole lot of d20 Modern support other than Ultra-Modern Firearms, but working with the Game Mechanics has allowed us to move into that area as well as allowing us to broaden out. I would not be surprised to see more deals like that in general in the game industry. It is sort of like the computer game model where there are designers and publishers.

Skull & Bones itself was going to be published for Adamant and then Gareth Skarka decided that he was going to have a hard time and he would be much better off teaming up with someone. They brought the project to Green Ronin, and that is how it all happened.
 

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
I think that's been happening since Day One. You mentioned the demise of Hogshead and FASA; if that's not Darwinism in action than I don't know what is. I don't think either one collapsed because of the supposed supremacy of D20 and the OGL; I thnk they were just flawed companies.[/b]

To overuse a phrase, this is Tarrasque Wrangler hitting the nail on the head.

I know this may ruffle some feathers, but I did not lament Hogshead's loss. I was elated when I heard about it. AFAIAC, Wallis made his own bed by doing what too many frothing fanboys do: assuming that the fan base is really as fragmented as they presume it is. D&D players are White Wolf players are nobilis players are warhammer players are hero players. You start being divisive, you are just asking to winnow away your customer base.

Frothing fanboys can afford that. Game companies can't.
 
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Was Hogshead flawed, or did the owners just decide they'd had enough and wanted to move on to something else? My impression was that they were profitable enough and didn't have any problems other than burnout.
 

Lots and lots of companies can't for the life of them break 5,000 copies per release with any kind of regularity. Three years ago, those numbers were common.

Hmmm. Maybe at the height of the d20 elation, but the trend isn't that unusual.

In pre-d20/3e days, I heard that WotC/TSR would not print a new book unless the brand manager could promise them 5000 copies would sell. Many reprints never happened because of it (I understand that a reprint of the Complete Necromancer's Handbook was often requested by fans, but they wouldn't do it.)

This essential market condition hasn't changed that much except for one thing: companies exist that can fill this smaller market segment. Indeed, filling these smaller print run product was one of the major justifications of the d20 license and OGL: because a large company like WotC was not interested in fielding small print run items. Effectively, this was a way of outsourcing small print run items that, indeed, fans want.

I'm surprised that anyone would be taken aback that third party products sell less than 5000 copies. That is the market that the d20 STL and OGL was created to support.
 

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