Stats for Zuggtmoy & other Demonic info.

[grodog]

Anyone know if they have ever been published?

I've been reading some stuff that lists changes that have occured to the Demon Lords & Princes and was looking for info on this stuff. For example I've read that Baphomet is insane, Fraz-Urb'luu is missing when I thought Erac's Cousin had freed him from Castle Greyhawk recently, Pazeuzeus is insane as well, & Juiblex is dead. What caused these changes from 1e to 2e & 3e? Do any Planescape modules explain this stuff?

Flexor, it sounds like you've been reading Canonfire!, or some old player notes from some of my games ;->

Do whatever you want with the demons, devils, and other beasties of the planes. If some of your questions have stemmed from reading CF!, please be aware that many folks on CF! are presenting stuff that's not canon for Greyhawk or D&D in general (hence the name, Canonfire). Anyway, if you're thoughts are just wandering around and weren't inspired by CF! or my games---heh---then I like the way you think! Submit some stuff to Canonfire!

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

FYI Kaptain Kantrip, i don't know where you get your info, but Dead Gods was one of THE BEST modules written, and Planescape was one of the best settings(besides Al quadim). I don't know if you ever played the adventure or even read it to say that it is lame. I KNOW for a fact that a lot of planescape fans think it was one of Monte's best adventures, and if you don't think so, why don't you go over to his site and post it.

If you don't like Planescape, fine. But i don't know why you have to make comments like that when you say

Frankly, I see little benefit in trying to keep MY campaign world in sync with that of various TSR/WoTC products. They don't know my campaign and the changes they make to the official settings are rarely ones I would make in my own. So I ignore them.

and then go into detail about how orcus became tenebrous, and whatever else. For a lame adventure you must have read it, or read about it to find out that much.

Sorry, just in a bad mood right now and had to get it offa my chest. I take it a little personally when someone bashes Planescape and its adventures which had some of the best creativity of any campaign setting around.

I never liked Planescape, Dark Sun, Birthright or Spelljammer. They were too weird for my taste (Birthright not in itself being a weird setting but the rulership/blood issues were). Since I never liked any of these settings, I never had any interest in the supplemental products put out for them. I never read Dead Gods, just heard about it and thought it sounded lame. I don't think it's a good idea to go around killing off deities as it devalues them as the "all-powerful entities" they should be. BTW: I did enjoy the Al-Qadim arabian setting.

PS: Sorry if my earlier comments upset you.

 

[Darkness]

I still think Scott's work is the closest to ANY for the Demon Princes, the ArchDevils AND other powerful Evil outsiders.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why so?

 

[Nightfall]

*post script, sorry this took so darn long Dark. Been a busy weekend trying to kill Diablo again*

Well I guess my reasoning is three fold. Orcus is a legend in D&D. He's been discussed, read and formatted since he and the others came out in the orginal Manual of the Planes (believe that's his first appearance, but I'll check that to be sure). He and the others have become iconic even more so than Elminster, Drizzt or any other number of heroes. Thus his formatting should reflect his venerability as well as his power. The tarrasque for example, is powerful, but everyone knows that any good solar or twenty could take it down (not permanently but fairly so). 2: WotC has yet to establish an epic level handbook for dealing with things that fall between god and mortal. Certainly outsiders are the key argument but what about powerful elemental lords, or dragons? My point is, there's very little consistancy for anything above 20th level, and few that warrant being above it, save NPCs and player characters. 3 Scott and the Creature Catalog have, over time, redeveloped and re-engineered these infamous personages, and yet he's in the minority, mainly since he's just website in the vastness of the d20 system. I've yet to see the stats for Orcus in RAIII, (though I'm assured they will be in there), but so far Necromancer (to my knowledge and the help of Scott), are the only ones to attempt at using both a demon prince AND stat him. Heck the closest we had was with the Demon God's Fane and that's only more powerful balor. So that's my reasoning. Pick it apart if you wish.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Orcus, Demogorgon, Juiblex and Yeenoghu all appeared for the 1st time in the original 1e MM, not Manual of the Planes, along with Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater and Geryon. FF had Lolth. MM2 had Moloch, Mammon, Mephistopheles, Belial and Fraz-Urb'Luu, Graz'zt, Baphomet, Kostchie, Pazuzu as well as a host of lesser demons, evils and the daemons and demodands. The 1st appearance of these latter demon princes was in Gygax's Lost Caverns ofd Tsjocanth module, and then were reprinted in MM2.

BTW: Scott's work is extremely well done and I think his conversions work fine. I wasn't aware there was some doubt as to his ability to convert these creatures. I thought his Orcus was somewhat more powerful than the one in Dungeon last year, but I might be misremembering it. Use whichever version you prefer, I say.

 

[Nightfall]

Okay sorry KK, my memory of 1st isn't what it used to be. And no you're not misrembering. Dungeon 81 has him listed at 22 I believe. Scott obviously thought he deserved much higher. I don't think there's doubt about it, just question as to WHAT will become the offical statting for these guys.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

The official stats will be those released by WoTC. However, I will be using Scott's stats if I find them more in line with what I think the creature's stats should be (and Orcus is one of them lovable ol' badasses who deserves max power!).

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I found the stats in Dragon 89 to be lacking to say the least. I expect the "official" stats of Orcus, Demogorgon, Dispater, etc., to be at least as powerful as Tiamat and Bahumut. If not I'll just use the ones in the Creature Catalog.