Stealth in Combat?

[DimitriX]

So we were playing the KotS last week and we were using the rogue pregen. We noticed that he was kind of weak and we realized that he rarely got to use his sneak attack. Part of the problem was that we were fighting kobolds in the inner Kobold Lair encounter. So, flanking them was difficult because they're shifty little buggers. But, other than flanking there didn't seem to be many opportunities for the rogue to get combat advantage in order to use sneak attack and deal out some major damage, the main role of a striker.

The only other thing we could consider was somehow hiding in combat. Unfortunately, the quick start rules don't really explain how to do that and now that one of us has the books we find that the full rules don't really explain all that well either. So, here's a list of questions to see what people are thinking about these:

If you need cover or concealment in order to hide, then can a rogue duck behind an ally (getting cover from ranged attacks) and hide?
Do you have to have cover from ALL enemies in order to hide?
Can you duck behind a statue, pillar, or tree trunk to gain cover and hide?
Is it possible that low level rogues just kind of suck and they have to wait until higher levels to get powers that will give them combat advantage?
Is it possible to do something really goofy like have a halfling rogue hide behind the dwarf fighter to get cover and hide and then use a ranged attack to use combat advantage from hiding and use the sneak attack?

 

[Mort_Q]

Lots of the cool stealth and combat advantage things a rogue can do are in the utility powers themselves.

 

[cdrcjsn]

If you need cover or concealment in order to hide, then can a rogue duck behind an ally (getting cover from ranged attacks) and hide?

It is unclear if allies provide 'cover' or only 'cover from ranged attacks'. If it is the former, then you can use Stealth to hide, if the latter, then it gets into some strange grey area that would need a FAQ to address.

Do you have to have cover from ALL enemies in order to hide?
Can you duck behind a statue, pillar, or tree trunk to gain cover and hide?

The only requirement of attempting a Stealth check is cover or concealment, so yeah. Awareness of your probable location isn't a factor. Your enemies can watch you go behind that tree and you can still make a stealth check. You can be hidden from some enemies and not others. You are trying to beat their Passive Perceptions separately.

Is it possible that low level rogues just kind of suck and they have to wait until higher levels to get powers that will give them combat advantage?

Sneak is very situational, but you can usually get it every round if you use terrain and movement.
Round 1: Sneak any opponent that hasn't gone yet, move to someplace that can provide cover, concealment or flank for next round
Round 2: Flank and attack, or Stealth and throw a dagger/shuriken, move to a better place where you can find cover,concealment or flank for the next round..
Round 3+: Same as round 2

Utility powers starting at level 2 will help with this, but even a 1st level Rogue has options. A halfling with the Artful Dodger path for example probably has a +6 to AC against OAs (+2 race, +4 from class), so getting flanks is easier.

Is it possible to do something really goofy like have a halfling rogue hide behind the dwarf fighter to get cover and hide and then use a ranged attack to use combat advantage from hiding and use the sneak attack?

Depends on whether or not allies count as cover.

 

[Vaeron]

The problem here is the kobolds, not the character. Combat advantage is actually pretty easy to gain, but it requires being able to control the enemies movement to an extent. You just can't do that very easily with kobolds, who can shift out of harms way. If you can get a surprise round, then high initiative, you can use first strike against any enemy that hasn't acted yet to inflict sneak attack damage.

The problem you've run into is that kobolds try to gain the surprise round - completely negating first strike. That and, yeah, their shiftiness. A warlord can use his powers to move allies around, and my KotS group has had great success with that, flanking, and the rogue in particular.

 

[Scalding]

Allies do not provide cover for the purpose of Stealth. Any terrain feature which provides cover will allow the Rogue to make a stealth check (vs. Perception of all the enemies that can see the Rogue). This stealth check will have to be made at the end of each turn in which the Rogue desires to remain hidden. Of course, movement, speaking, or anything else which creates noise or could draw attention to the Rogue will impose a penalty on these checks, and circumstances such as low light, a zone of silence, etc., will grant a bonus.

The Rogue can use a Bluff check (vs. Insight) as a standard action once per encounter to feint. If successful, the Rogue gains combat advantage against the target until the end of the Rogue's next turn.

The Rogue can also use a Bluff check (vs. Insight of all enemies that can see the Rogue) as a standard action once per encounter to create a diversion in order to hide. If successful, the Rogue immediately rolls Stealth (vs. Perception of all enemies that can see the Rogue). If successful, the Rogue is hidden and gains combat advantage until the end of the Rogue's next turn, or until the Rogue does something to reveal itself. Of course, the Rogue could use its next turn to move into cover and maintain the stealth.

 

[LowSpine]

Blinding Barrage daily at first gives you blinding combat advantage.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Sunday I played the rogue pregen; we played three encounters, the first 2 involving the kobolds. I agree that it has very much to do with them gaining surprise and being shifty little buggers. I got great initiative both times but with surprise it didn't help anyway. In the 3rd encounter I rolled poorly for init, but after that I found it MUCH easier to flank and do devastating damage (I got a crit with a sneak attack sly flourish --> 27 hp (more than the rogue's own max hp!). Plus the fighter strategically used a sweeping strike to render an opponent prone so I could follow up with a sneak attack. Throughout, I found it astonishing how well I could slip past enemies and strike down soft targets with the combination of artful dodger and nimble reaction (total AC 23 vs. OAs) and halfling second chance to just risk the OAs and go for broke. Very fun.

I was disappointed that I never used my daily and only once tried my encounter power for shifting opponents because shifty kobolds could so easily compensate that it wasn't worth it, but I think that, too, will not be the case later. I also think it could have worked fine if I or an ally had delayed so that we could coordinate attacks, such that I could try to force movement in a way that could be exploited before the little buggers could then move and ruin it.

Gotta say, of course there were both pros and cons IMO but one thing's clear and that is I had a lot of fun playing, a LOT more than most 3e fights. No glut of buffs and typed bonuses to track, fights took as long but involved more (i.e. faster) rounds and yes, everyone had something interesting to do each round. The most fun was discovering how PC tactics naturally gravitate toward their roles simply based on your strengths and weaknesses and exploiting the synergies. For instance, when we discovered that it was worth having the wizard drop a scorching burst centered on the fighter because he could take the damage and in the process wipe out a number of the minions surrounding him due to his ability to mark and hold foes to him (we got lucky and he was actually missed on that burst!). I didn't feel forced in my tactics nor did I feel like I had to struggle to decide. Our behavior quickly adapted to our abilities in a way that confirmed our roles.

 

[MindWanderer]

halfling second chance to just risk the OAs and go for broke.

Doesn't work. Second Chance is an immediate interrupt, and you can't use immediate actions on your own turn.

 

[Scalding]

halfling second chance to just risk the OAs and go for broke.

Doesn't work. Second Chance is an immediate interrupt, and you can't use immediate actions on your own turn.

Probably meant Nimble Reaction.

 

[Harr]

Ok, stealth in combat is an ambiguous issue as written in the PHB and you're likely to get a bunch of different answers from different people. Go with what sounds most within the intent of the rules to you and don't pay too much attention to everybody else's interpretations but your own (especially, no offense to anyone, those claiming that their own interpretations are obvious and explicitly stated in the rules etc) until an official errata or clarification is published somewhere.

That said, this is how I, personally, have interpreted the rules in the PHB after much discussion and debate with other DMs. I believe they follow the original intent of the rules and are fair to the rogue.

If you need cover or concealment in order to hide, then can a rogue duck behind an ally (getting cover from ranged attacks) and hide?

No, the section of "ally-cover" states that "When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover."

Therefore your alliy counts as cover only for the purposes of determining the enemy's ranged attack against you, nothing else.

Do you have to have cover from ALL enemies in order to hide?

No, if you have cover against one or several enemies, and you take an action which you wnt to take stealthily, you make an opposed Stealth roll versus their Active Perception (if the creature is currently actively fighting you) or their Passive Perception (if the creature is fighting someone else or otherwise not focused particularly on you), and are then hidden to that creature.

Can you duck behind a statue, pillar, or tree trunk to gain cover and hide?

Yes, once you have cover (and only after you've achieved cover) you can take a stealhy action to attempt to hide.

Note that there is no actual 'hide' action, as in 'this is me hiding now'. You roll as Stealth roll as part of another action which you want to do stealthily. If you want to hide in a tree, first you need to move behind the tree and gain cover from an enemy, then you would try to climb this tree with a Stealth roll included in the action, and if you pass it, you are then hidden up in the tree for and and all creatures you beat with the roll.

If you want to hide among some bushes, you would need to first enter the bushes to get cover, then with another separate move action move inside the bushes to another location, but this time stealthily, so that now you are hidden in a spot noone saw you go into, therefore they are unaware of your exact location and you can get CA against whoever failed their opposed Perception.

Once you attack an enemy, that enemy becomes aware of you and you can't sneak-attack that particular enemy from that particular location any more, you have to either stealthily attack someone else or stealthily move somewhere else (but it can be as simple as just moving to the next square over that has cover).

Whether you can take a Stealth roll with the very action that moves you under cover is debatable, I have interpreted that no, you can't do that, since you don't have cover at the beginning or middle of that move. You must have cover to attempt perform an action stealthily.

(Yes, this means that you can't become 'hidden' when an object provides a single square of cover, since you can't move around within the covered area. So be it.)

Is it possible that low level rogues just kind of suck and they have to wait until higher levels to get powers that will give them combat advantage?

Actually, with a well-built area rogues are plenty happy with hiding options. The Kobold lair outside is filled with trees that grant concealment, for instance. The other two starting encounters also have plenty of areas which grant it. Our rogue had lots of fun running around in them

The Inner Kobold Lair has a bunch of free-standing walls, our rogue just hid behind the cover of the center wall (on the north side) and walked over to the other corner and started taking sneal-attack potshots at the kobolds on the southside (while the paladin kept the kobolds up on the north side busy).

That said, yes the rogue will be much more effective once he gets a few concealment-granting abilities under his belt.

Is it possible to do something really goofy like have a halfling rogue hide behind the dwarf fighter to get cover and hide and then use a ranged attack to use combat advantage from hiding and use the sneak attack?

Nope, ally-cover does not count as cover for purposes of hiding. But it's a good question that has popped up several times.


As I said in the beginning, this is interpretation, but it;s the interpretation that I like the most, makes the most logical sense to me, and seems most in line with what is intended of Stealth. Many others' interpretations may vary, and they are probably fine too, until we get some official message on this.