Stealthy players

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

- Fascinate. I, the bard, fascinate the enemy while the ninja and wizard stealth their way behind him. We took out the only enemy to give us any real trouble in our first dungeon by using this one, and now my bard has a magic harp that adds 1 to the DC to resist her performance.

Wouldn't the enemy focus on the soft bard then? In fact, couldn't the enemy get initiative on the bard first?

- Improved Initiative. The ninja goes first a LOT. He tends to get sneak attack damage in the surprise/first round because of it.

That's his job. Not particularly terrible.

- Message. We can whisper plans to each other from a distance.

That was one of the things that made original drow horrible opponents. They had better darkvision than even dwarf PCs and could communicate silently by hand language.

- Vanishing Trick. The ninja can, as of our recent level-up grant himself short bursts of invisibility for free sneak attack.

If he uses this before combat, it's probably overpowered. Invisibility does not follow the usual skill resolution system. At best, it's giving an unstoppable DC for a skill check. At worst, it's giving an unstoppable bonus to a skill check.

Stealth rules tend to be hard to parse, but no matter how stealthy you are, you need to know the opponents are there first, as they might spot you even before you use Stealth. (In 3.5, while being stealthy, you took a -4 penalty to Spot for keeping your head down.)

Enemies with scent are a help. If you have one PC who "goes off to do their own thing" there's no reason you can't sometimes use an NPC or monster suited to them. So if you have a rogue, a creature with scent or other special senses can hunt them down. If you have a sorcerer who spams Fly, that tactic fails when they run into an invisible stalker (or something much lower level, perhaps a pixie who can turn invisible).

There's also rules about cover, concealment, etc, and how much you need to be able to even use stealth. That's why, in real-life, the best secure locations are placed on plain hills with no cover or concealment (these are razed by the guards on a regular basis). Short of invisibility, they'll be spotted. In a dungeon, opportunities for stealth are greater, but simply closing the doors to every room should make things easier on the defenders; the PCs have to open those doors, and even using invisibility, the enemies will always spot the doors opening. (Also, this means the PCs have to expend resources on Clairvoyance, etc, to see what's in the room.)

 

[SnowleopardVK]

Wouldn't the enemy focus on the soft bard then? In fact, couldn't the enemy get initiative on the bard first?

Enemies that fail their saves against fascination just stand around watching the bard unless they're being attacked already, or if a combat is happening nearby. They don't actually focus attacks on her because they stop attacking.

They end up stuck watching her while the ninja goes off somewhere they can't see, enters stealth, and then sneaks around behind them for a sneak attack. They don't get their automatic second saving throw against fascination since they don't see any enemy approaching, and the fascination itself gives them -4 to their perception to notice him stealthing around. Quite often they'll only be able to notice him on a nat 20, and so they don't generally get their second save to break out of fascination like they would if he were just charging them.

(I neglected to quote the rest mostly because I agree with it)

 

[cattoy]

After the fact, when they're all drinking to their latest success in the tavern, their bard sings songs about how clever and sneaky they were, while the other adventuring group's bard is singing a tale about their heroic struggles and getting all the love from the audience.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

After the fact, when they're all drinking to their latest success in the tavern, their bard sings songs about how clever and sneaky they were, while the other adventuring group's bard is singing a tale about their heroic struggles and getting all the love from the audience.

That doesn't really seem like a way of challenging sneaky players, it's more like a way of making their victory less meaningful. XD

 

[cattoy]

That doesn't really seem like a way of challenging sneaky players, it's more like a way of making their victory less meaningful. XD

Since sneaky players aren't that into challenges anyway, I felt it was the appropriate response.

Especially after they hear about all the awesome loot the more challenge-oriented groups are pulling down when they get all the juicy job offers. Along with a few elegies to fallen comrades, of course. Heroism isn't very safe, relative to sneaking up on everything and ganking them from behind. But if you don't visibly reward heroic actions, don't expect heroic actions.

 

[pauljathome]

How do you deal with players who are simply TOO good at being stealthy?

One thing to keep in mind is that the party is expending considerable resources on being stealthy. While you want to sometimes make things challenging for them you also want their preferred approach to generally be a viable one

But there are very simple ways of getting around stealth. Some things are as simple as a closed door or a very dusty floor. Other challenges include animals with scent, squeaky floors, NPCs with high perception rolls, and opponents who are themselves hidden

 

[SnowleopardVK]

Since sneaky players aren't that into challenges anyway, I felt it was the appropriate response.

Especially after they hear about all the awesome loot the more challenge-oriented groups are pulling down when they get all the juicy job offers. Along with a few elegies to fallen comrades, of course. Heroism isn't very safe, relative to sneaking up on everything and ganking them from behind. But if you don't visibly reward heroic actions, don't expect heroic actions.

Oy, who says we're not into challenges and heroism? We've hunted down an escaped fugitive and took back an entire fortress from a troglodyte tribe, hordes of the undead, and alien abominations, saving nearly a dozen trapped soldiers in the process! (And that second one almost killed my bard I'll have you know)

Being so stealthy that the opponent never sees us coming or can't hit back at all is extremely challenging, generally it's not even possible considering we're not THAT high in level yet.

Point is, we're taking on dungeons and danger just as much as any other party, we just have to put a LOT of thought and planning into how we handle our attacks. I'd even go as far as to call it more of a challenge than simply charging in the direct way with a strong melee fighter at the front of the group.

Stealthy =/= Cowardly