Steel Batallian

[Hollywood]

Steering wheels are about the same these days (though console wheels used to be pretty lame). Flight sticks are still weak on consoles, while gamepads still are subpar on PC's and are also far too expensive in comparsion to console gamepads.

As for wheels, yes to some extent.. I was referring to the more "exotic" stuff that most race and flight sim fans use as opposed to the stuff you buy off the shelf at Best Buy. As for gamepads, I'm not sure how you can say that. My current gamepad works just as well, or better, than the PS2 or Xbox controllers do. And it was only like $30 bucks. Most of the console controllers, etc. I see, being properitary, are generally more expensive.

There's also the issues of smaller, high resolution monitors vs. larger, lower resolution TV's, with the recent rise of progressive scan in console gaming making this subtopic even more interesting.

Yeah, sure, you still have to drop a couple of grand for HDTVs. Otherwise, frankly I prefer a 19 to 21" monitor running at 1024+ resolutions over even big screen TVs.

Keyboards are also available on most consoles, as well.

At that point, your console is essentially becoming a very limited [since it only does gaming and/or dvd based media playback] general purpose computer.

That's a very skewed perspective, to say the least. One or two $15 memory cards that will save 30+ games will always far cheaper than any reasonable hard drive on the market.

Not really. I don't use 3.5" floppies anymore, because I hate keeping stack and stacks of them around. Use as few writable CDs and DVDs as I can, and as many harddrives because you have virtually unlimited space. Not to mention with harddrives they are bundled with the system and you generally don't lose them between cushions of the couch, getting sucked up in the vacuum, etc.

But it's also expensive as hell to continually upgrade, and in terms of potential power vs. effective usage, the PC wastes a lot of its resources.

I suppose it depends on how often you upgrade too and what you upgrade and how effectively you upgrade. Buying a new system every couple of years is expensive. But the point of a computer is that it not only can do high-end gaming, but it allows you to a vast variety of computing tasks.

Most PC game developers code for a lowest common denominator, rarely taking full advantage of the hardware available to them simply because the PC hardware market is so varied.

Actually, they don't. If they were still definetly to the LCD, you'd be talking about developers just now getting into hardware transform and lighting. However, yes there is a level thats not at the top of PC hardware that gets used as a baseline, although most developers attempt to cram as much advanced hardware usage as they can in. And one reason the PC games are generally the same price as most consoles [which have licensing fees to deal with] is that it takes a tad bit longer generally to develop and test a PC game due to the broad nature of hardware out there... which is a plus for consoles [in fact, even though xbox uses a win2k kernel, it has no dynamic libraries, all libraries are static and are shipped on the dvd with the game so that the game always has the right libaries.]

Along with that comes patching, conflicts, and incompatability issues that will never be found on console systems.

Yeah, once a bug on a console, always a bug. Yippee!!

As for genres, the PC has been playing catch-up in the RPG department (and doing very well now, thanks mostly to Bioware and Black Isle), while consoles have been doing the same with FPS'. The PC has an edge in FPS' while consoles still maintain a slight RPG edge, IMO.

The RPG has gotten resurected on the PC, sure. But catch-up? No, I don't think so. There is nothing like Morrowing, NWN, the BG series [hah, look at the lame title they did for the console using the BG name], etc. on the console. It tends more towards anime stuff like FF which has a completely different mindset of adventuring that tends to not be as accepted to PC gamers. I personally new the developers who wrote Septerra Core, a FF-ish RPG, for the PC. Got excellent reviews, etc.. but didn't sell well at all. Have a copy somewhere, played it, and it was a good game, but never enjoyed it just like I never enjoyed the FF series.

As far as FPS, until the keyboard and mouse [or a controller that mimics it quite closely] is the perferred control device on a console, FPS will never remotely get close to whats on the PC; especially more hard-core realistic shooters. Gamepads just don't have the fidelity for the precision in which most FPS gamers need.

'Sides, with FPS the genre is as much about the game as the mods that come up and surround it. Won't see that happen for a console, even the XBox due to its very nature.

Platform and adventure games, in general, are far superior on consoles, while RTS and flight sims are generally always much better on PC's.

Much like FPS, I'm not really sure you can play an RTS on a console without a keyboard/mouse control setup.

Platform games? Guess I stopped that back at Lode Runner. No wait, I did spend one weekend playing Contra way back in college.

As for adventure, personal preference is for an RPG over adventure games.

Sports and racing games are more of a toss-up and could be argued either way.

Sports, yes. Arcade racing games, yes. But racing sims are in the same boat as flight sims.

there are certain games that will never see the light of day on PC, and games that will never come to consoles

Thats not a bad thing.. there are plenty of titles that work best for the general "culture" thats grown up around each. About the only thing I really wish that the PC had is a high-quality fighting game like DOA3.

I won't even go into the difference in 'feel' between console and PC games.

Kids vs adults? Its my hang-up, but I always feel like I'm playing a child's toy when playing a game on a console... even when its a game like Grand Theft Auto 3.

There's also socialization issues, ease of transport, among other things.

Well, don't need the computer or console to socialize. But then again, right now even if you have a console and take it somewhere, you are limited to what connecting two systems together? How many of the games take advantage of that?

Buddy of mine just got one of the small mini-PC cases that basically holds a DVD/CD, harddrive, one PCI card, one AGP video card, and has a built in 10/100 motherboard and supports latest Intel P4s and chipsets, along with DDRRAM. Even comes with a carrying case. It dimensions are different, but making a quick judgement call, I'd say it takes up slightly less area than an Xbox. Now, granted, it was a bit heavier than my decked out alumnium cased PC, but being that you could easily transport it and LCD monitor in one trip... it was nice.

On all of those points, I agree 100%.

Well, that is a least something import to agree upon. Gameplay is king... without it, even the flashiest graphics and hardware is just boring after about 5 minutes.

I can only venture a guess, but one reason may be that Tsyr prefers a large viewing area, hence the recommendation for a 27"+ TV...

HDTV? I could understand that. But a 27" TV running in the really low resolutions it does is worse than running a 19" or 21" monitor at 1024+ resolutions....

'Sides, Steel Battallion sounds like the prefect game to go to the expense of a tri-monitor setup.

 

[Tsyr]

1) Yeah, once a bug on a console, always a bug. Yippee!!

2) The RPG has gotten resurected on the PC, sure. But catch-up? No, I don't think so. There is nothing like Morrowing, NWN, the BG series [hah, look at the lame title they did for the console using the BG name], etc. on the console.

3) As far as FPS, until the keyboard and mouse [or a controller that mimics it quite closely] is the perferred control device on a console, FPS will never remotely get close to whats on the PC; especially more hard-core realistic shooters. Gamepads just don't have the fidelity for the precision in which most FPS gamers need.

4) Much like FPS, I'm not really sure you can play an RTS on a console without a keyboard/mouse control setup.

5) HDTV? I could understand that. But a 27" TV running in the really low resolutions it does is worse than running a 19" or 21" monitor at 1024+ resolutions....

'Sides, Steel Battallion sounds like the prefect game to go to the expense of a tri-monitor setup.

1) Which is why, by and large, games for consoles are pretty much bug-free.

2) Morrowind is out for the console. Not a single reason BG, BG2, or even NWN couldn't exist for the console.

3) You can, as mentioned, get a keyboard/mouse for consoles

4) You can

5) I honestly wonder if you have ever played a recent console if you make statements like that. Load up Steel Batallion, DOA3, etc, on a 56" TV. It's amazing. And no, for Steel Batallion, you wouldn't want a small monitor, period.

And Steel Batallion wouldn't work with tri-monitors... that would actualy violate the entire feel of the game.

 

[Ristamar]

As for wheels, yes to some extent.. I was referring to the more "exotic" stuff that most race and flight sim fans use as opposed to the stuff you buy off the shelf at Best Buy. As for gamepads, I'm not sure how you can say that. My current gamepad works just as well, or better, than the PS2 or Xbox controllers do. And it was only like $30 bucks. Most of the console controllers, etc. I see, being properitary, are generally more expensive.

I'll take my now $25 wireless Wavebird any day of the week. I can pick up a non-wireless controller for about $17 at Wal-Mart, and that's if I go first party. Third party controllers are even cheaper.

By the way, exotic and most don't exactly go together. The very reason it is exotic is because most people don't use them, save for the diehard enthusiasts.

Yeah, sure, you still have to drop a couple of grand for HDTVs. Otherwise, frankly I prefer a 19 to 21" monitor running at 1024+ resolutions over even big screen TVs.

A couple thousand? I don't know where you shop, but you can get a 32" HDTV for about one thousand dollars these days.

At that point, your console is essentially becoming a very limited [since it only does gaming and/or dvd based media playback] general purpose computer.

*sigh* It's not a computer, nor is it ever supposed to be a computer. It's akin to bitching that the PS2 isn't a great DVD player, or that a cell phone has a clunky text-message communication interface. Wow, shocking, as that is not their primary functions.

Consoles are gaming systems... the keyboard is there for those that prefer a keyboard interface.

Not really. I don't use 3.5" floppies anymore, because I hate keeping stack and stacks of them around. Use as few writable CDs and DVDs as I can, and as many harddrives because you have virtually unlimited space. Not to mention with harddrives they are bundled with the system and you generally don't lose them between cushions of the couch, getting sucked up in the vacuum, etc.

I have no idea what floppy disks have to do with this discussion. As for the rest, everything you mentioned still costs money, far more money than a cheap little memory card.

I suppose it depends on how often you upgrade too and what you upgrade and how effectively you upgrade. Buying a new system every couple of years is expensive.

Most PC gamers don't buy new systems that often, they use piecemeal upgrades over many months, with the most commonly swapped parts being the CPU, the videocard, RAM, and the motherboard. The only reason I mention this is because you often have to upgrade multiple parts at once to capitalize on the sum of said parts, otherwise you run into bad bottlenecks in performance.

But the point of a computer is that it not only can do high-end gaming, but it allows you to a vast variety of computing tasks.

This is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. I don't care if your computer cooks you breakfast or teaches your dog to fetch and play dead. We're discussing games.

But while we're on the topic, you do realize that the PC gaming industry is, by far, the driving force behind the hardware industry? The main reason most people have high-end systems is to play games, not to balance their checkbook or type up reports. You're not going to squeeze much extra performance out of Excel or Internet Explorer with a 3 ghz. processor and 128 meg Radeon 9700 Pro. In fact, unless you're running 3D Studio Max, a raytracer, or some other ultra-intense program, I'm sure a sub-1 ghz. processor and integrated graphics chip would do fine.

Yeah, once a bug on a console, always a bug. Yippee!!

Now I'm starting to chuckle. Even the most diehard PC fanboys I know at least admit to (and loathe) the horrendous trend of PC games shipping with inexcusable bugs which often require multiple patches, and rarely do they fix every issue.

And yes, console games do have a few bugs. Fortunately 99.9% of these bugs are so minor or rare, most people never notice them, and even then, they're generally just quirks that don't effect gameplay in any manner.

The RPG has gotten resurected on the PC, sure. But catch-up? No, I don't think so. There is nothing like Morrowing, NWN, the BG series [hah, look at the lame title they did for the console using the BG name], etc. on the console. It tends more towards anime stuff like FF which has a completely different mindset of adventuring that tends to not be as accepted to PC gamers. I personally new the developers who wrote Septerra Core, a FF-ish RPG, for the PC. Got excellent reviews, etc.. but didn't sell well at all. Have a copy somewhere, played it, and it was a good game, but never enjoyed it just like I never enjoyed the FF series.

And hey, how about that, two of the titles you mentioned were released in the last six or seven months, while console gamers have been enjoying myriad classic RPG's for well over a decade.

I won't deny that NWN and the BG series are great and unique, and that Morrowind on the PC is superior to the XBOX version. However, it's common knowledge that the PC RPG industry was virtually defunct until the BG series revitalized the genre. So yes, it has been playing catch-up, and as I said before, it's doing quite well.

I also agree that PC RPG's have an entirely different feel than console RPG's.

The rest of what you wrote is a matter of personal taste and is not pertinent to the discussion.

As far as FPS, until the keyboard and mouse [or a controller that mimics it quite closely] is the perferred control device on a console, FPS will never remotely get close to whats on the PC; especially more hard-core realistic shooters. Gamepads just don't have the fidelity for the precision in which most FPS gamers need.

I won't argue that a mouse/keyboard combo is more precise. However, that doesn't mean all console FPS' are clunky and obsolete. If done properly, they have a different feel, and play perfectly fine. In fact, Goldeneye and Halo are considered two of the best FPS' of all time, both exclusive to the lowly console.

'Sides, with FPS the genre is as much about the game as the mods that come up and surround it. Won't see that happen for a console, even the XBox due to its very nature.

I agree, the mods are very nice, and are strong part of the PC gaming experience.

Much like FPS, I'm not really sure you can play an RTS on a console without a keyboard/mouse control setup.

That is somewhat true, though there are some RTS games that work out on consoles, but they tend to be quirky and focus on single player gameplay.

Platform games? Guess I stopped that back at Lode Runner. No wait, I did spend one weekend playing Contra way back in college.

As for adventure, personal preference is for an RPG over adventure games.

Again, personal preference. Some of the greatest games ever made are platformers and adventure games. Your dismissal of them does not render them insignificant.

Sports, yes. Arcade racing games, yes. But racing sims are in the same boat as flight sims.

I disagree with your statement concerning flight sims, as the level of complexity in any given flight sim is often far greater than almost any available racing game. You're virtually implying that it's as easy to fly an F-14 as it is to drive an indy car. Those are two entirely different levels of complexity.

Kids vs adults? Its my hang-up, but I always feel like I'm playing a child's toy when playing a game on a console... even when its a game like Grand Theft Auto 3.

Again, irrelevant (if not flat out absurd), a personal preference, and a quirky one at that.

Well, don't need the computer or console to socialize. But then again, right now even if you have a console and take it somewhere, you are limited to what connecting two systems together? How many of the games take advantage of that?

You entirely missed the point. It has to do with large online communities and sporadic LAN parties vs. directly gaming with a small group. It's playing with a few friends in the same room as opposed to communicating with a mass of faceless strangers. Both have their own strengths and weaknesses, but that is another discussion.

Buddy of mine just got one of the small mini-PC cases that basically holds a DVD/CD, harddrive, one PCI card, one AGP video card, and has a built in 10/100 motherboard and supports latest Intel P4s and chipsets, along with DDRRAM. Even comes with a carrying case. It dimensions are different, but making a quick judgement call, I'd say it takes up slightly less area than an Xbox. Now, granted, it was a bit heavier than my decked out alumnium cased PC, but being that you could easily transport it and LCD monitor in one trip... it was nice.

Nice. You compare an abnormally small PC to perhaps the largest game console of all time, the behemoth XBOX. And you failed to mention the wires, speakers, powerstrip, keyboard, mouse, and so forth....

Try toting around a PS2, or better yet, a Gamecube, and a few controllers. It's a highly noticeable difference.

HDTV? I could understand that. But a 27" TV running in the really low resolutions it does is worse than running a 19" or 21" monitor at 1024+ resolutions....

Yes, monitors boast a higher resolution. Everyone knows that.

You'd be surprised what even a simple S-Video cable can do on a decent TV, let alone component video on an HDTV. Games like Halo and Metroid Prime didn't receive rave reviews in the graphics department because they looked 'ok' on a 'crummy, low resolution TV.'

'Sides, Steel Battallion sounds like the prefect game to go to the expense of a tri-monitor setup.

Yes, it probably would look sweet as hell, but you're talking about a lot of cash right there.

Wrapping this up... in the context of your preferences, yes, you love PC's and think consoles are 'teh suXX0r.' It's similar to console fanboys denouncing PC's and other rival consoles.

In short, the PC gaming superiority you profess is based largely on your preferences and bias and has little to do with relevant facts.

You like PC's, and that is fine. You think consoles are kids' toys, and hey, that is fine, too. But your likes and dislikes come absolutely nowhere close to establishing strong evidence that consoles are inferior to PC's (or vice versa).

And just for kicks, you may want to glance at this article.

Anyway, I am now done with this discussion.

 

[Leopold]

can we go back to steel battallion discussions now???

 

[Chun-tzu]

I don't understand the appeal of an uber-controller for $200. MechAssault I love, Steel Batallion... I just don't get it

If you don't get it, then this game probably isn't for you.

The appeal is in the tactile experience. With a controller like that, the game is less abstract and more realistic. Same reason some people much prefer driving games with steering wheels instead of just a left button, a right button, and gas and brake buttons. That is NOT driving.

Steel Battalion is a game that is, at this point, one-of-a-kind. You can play first-person shooters, sports games, and computer RPGs on consoles, computers, arcades... there is NO other way to play a game like Steel Battalion.

As for the price tag, cost is relative. Am I rich enough to drop $200 without blinking? Heck, no, I'm a grad student! But I also spend far more than $200 on all sorts of things, and yes, I'd rather have Steel Battalion than 4 other games. No other games have been interesting enough to get me to buy a system, instead of playing games on my PC.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get Steel Battalion yet. I don't plan to order one online, unless I have to. And I'm pretty busy these days anyway, so it's just as well that I get it after the holidays.

 

[Tsyr]

If you don't get it, then this game probably isn't for you.

That's probably about the best answer right there.

For example, a friend asked me why I bothered with a GBA... I generaly play it at home anyhow, after all, so basicly I have a Super Nintendo with a really bad screen. My response was very similar to that one, though it was actualy a bit closer to "If you have to have it explained to you, you will never understand it."

It's sorta like gaming, seen from an outsiders view... "So, why do you guys spend hours and hours reading, writing, doing math, and using your brain, cramped in someones apartment, around the dinner table, most of whom are other guys your own age, all generaly geeks... when you could be hanging out with friends, watching TV, or chasing women?".

Answer?

Uhh... Well, there isn't any good answer that will mean anything to them. We do it because it's something we enjoy, for whatever reason.

Same with Steel Batallion. To me, it's an appealing option.

 

[Shapermc]

WOW!

Extreamly mature conversation here. I will put my 0.02 cp here. If it was not the Christmas season and I did not have to save up for moving n april and my wife had decided not to go back to college a year ago I would be playing Stell Batallion right now. I would be loving it on my crappy low rez 27" screen of goodness.

BTW I have a Wonder Swan and a GBA My wonder swan is even B&W

 

[Ristamar]

BTW I have a Wonder Swan...

Dear god, they're coming out of the woodwork...

 

[Welverin]

Dear god, they're coming out of the woodwork...

Maybe this will make you feel a little better: I've heard of it but don't have one.

 

[Destil]

Accualy, I think you're refering to a Wonder Swan Color. There was, I believe, an original Black & White system called the Wonder Swan, the color is it's sucessor.

Handy little system, had some real appealing exclusive games that never really had any chance of coming to this country, like an Ogre Battle game (though made by SNK, not Quest) and re-makes of Final Fantasy I and II.