Yes. For the most recent example (2 weeks ago), we talked briefly about their interests. I got out stacks of RPG books and let them look through them to discuss what interested them the most.
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Still Searching for "That" System
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I am more and more convinced that you are not on the same page as your players, system will not solve that.
They certainly get frustrated by TPKs, just like they do when a combat is over before they got a chance to act.
If I were going to break it down, I probably have the following (across all groups) with 5e.
Fight that ends before all characters get a chance (10%)
Fight that ends within two rounds and you don't even have to care what's happening (70%)
Fight that feels like a "good challenge," party has to use some strategy and resources (10%)
Fight that is custom built by me, getting lucky, throwing out the system's guidance entirely, that ends up epic and fun (4%)
TPK (6%)
Running a game for my son and his friends, and running one for my friends, I've never had a fight end in two rounds and never had a TPK. (Goodman Games adaption of B1/B2 twice now, plus a bunch of homebrew stuff, and White Plume Mountain).
payn
He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Patterns I see are PCs being invincible, or TPK every other session. Rule set guidance not sufficient, and/or adventure material faulty. It is clearly important to you to have a combat system that is simple, but also challenging. In other threads, many complaints about 5E not having gold and magic items to buy for PCs. Seems you really want a system that mechanically highlights how to play it in as many aspects as possible. The fewer mechanical paths, the less comfort/enjoyment there is.
I see your 5E experience breakdown above. What would be the ideal percentages?
Thomas Shey
Legend
Its not hard to tell that the designers came out of of 3e (where they at least tried to have to have encounter design tools that worked) and 4e (where, whatever my other issues with it, they succeeded in having encounter design tools that worked).
I kinda would love to sit in on one of your games to see how exactly you get to do that. It is so different to my experience.
What party size are we talking here?
The account below fills me with questions.
What do you mean by this?
My interpetation would be that this is a fight where the bad guys (or the characters) die in the first round before all characters act.
My take on this is a fight where most of the enemy is killed in the first round.
Is the party nova-ing?
It is a good challenge for whom? (you or the Party)?
What is strategy in this context?
What level of resource use?
Why should this number be bigger?
Are these failed attempts at epic and fun?
To be honest #5 - epic fights should be uncommon, it is narratively implausible otherwise and mathematically unlikely. If you try for it will result in excessive TPKs.
#4 should be your default, at least for 5e. Even for grittier game systems if you murder the party too often it will not be satisfying.
Gritty campaigns work best where the party choses combat as a last resort and try to only fight on their terms. If your players want heroic combat and you want epic combat the maths is going to be against you in most systems unless the system allows the turning of defeats into something else (or you do it as referee).
What party size are we talking here?
The account below fills me with questions.
1)
What do you mean by this?
My interpetation would be that this is a fight where the bad guys (or the characters) die in the first round before all characters act.
2)
My take on this is a fight where most of the enemy is killed in the first round.
Is the party nova-ing?
4)
It is a good challenge for whom? (you or the Party)?
What is strategy in this context?
What level of resource use?
5)
Why should this number be bigger?
6)
Are these failed attempts at epic and fun?
To be honest #5 - epic fights should be uncommon, it is narratively implausible otherwise and mathematically unlikely. If you try for it will result in excessive TPKs.
#4 should be your default, at least for 5e. Even for grittier game systems if you murder the party too often it will not be satisfying.
Gritty campaigns work best where the party choses combat as a last resort and try to only fight on their terms. If your players want heroic combat and you want epic combat the maths is going to be against you in most systems unless the system allows the turning of defeats into something else (or you do it as referee).
Would you say that you fudge die rolls often? Do you "soft fudge" (use suboptimal tactics, even for intelligent opponents)?
Do you have a standard-sized party? Do you use any rules variants?
I think this could be because - after running so many "cakewalk" encounters - I ratchet up the difficulty to what I assume would be acceptable, and it ends in a TPK. Or it could be that the players get used to not being challenged that they start making silly choices (which happened in Curse of Strahd that nearly led to a TPK when a player decided her character should try to get all the Dark Powers while the party was fighting a Death Slaad.)
But yeah, I do want the possibility of depth (in equipment, tactics, character creation) for those who want it - but for it to not be required for other players.
Fight that ends before all characters get a chance (<1%)
Fight that ends within two rounds and you don't even have to care what's happening (~50%)
Fight that feels like a "good challenge," party has to use some strategy and resources (~40%)
Fight that is custom built by me, getting lucky, throwing out the system's guidance entirely, that ends up epic and fun (~10%)
TPK (<1%)
Edit: Fixed my math signs.
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I have run Princes of the Apocalypse to completion, Use Higer level of Dungeon of the Mad Mage and some high level encounters from a mix of other products, home brew up to 20 level and starting with Ghosts of Saltmarsh. 4 person party. we have had 2 round fights but average is 3 to 6. Have had fights up 10 rounds or more. Do not fudge on 5e only once I pulled on tactics where the party was level 16 and I was pushing the edge to see the limits of the party.
No high level TPKs
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