Stopping take 20 Searching.

[TheAuldGrump]

It simulates plausibility for me; in real life, some things are just plain BEYOND a person without help (aid another), or for someone without sufficient training (more skill ranks or skill focus).

Or they need better tools. I used that line once when the player was one point shy in the skill. 'You know how to get it, but you don't have the right tools, maybe if you got a better set?...' They went and bought a masterwork set and opened the door.

Before taking the Take 20 rule I had a few adventures that almost dead ended because they need to get through a certain door and could not. (The solution of course was to have an NPC with the keys as an encounter.)

It is a monkeys and typewriters situation, if enough characters are willing to spend twenty times as long they can be pretty darned sure they found everything that there was to find.

The Auld Grump

 

[RFisher]

Again, how is this situation a problem with the Take 20 rule?

Because a one point difference between always impossible & always possible is, to me, silly. (N.B. that I don't have a problem in general with something being impossible for a particular character.)

Why can't the +4 character spend 40× the standard amount of time & succeed? Why, if he's only one point away from impossibility, does the +5 character only take 20× as long?

Technically, it isn't a problem with the take-20 rule itself. It's a problem of the resolution of the die roll & the rules for retrying tasks. (Which is why my "fixes" involve changing thoes things.)

Plus, I don't want to create false urgency in order to counter-act the effect of take-20. (I guess I'm not big on time pressures in general. Time enough for take-20 often occurs when I'm DM.) I'd rather have the suspense that a +5 character may not be able to pick the DC 25 lock even with unlimited time. It's at the ultimate edge of his ability. There should be a chance that he just won't be able to do it. Or, at the least, there should be the possibility that it takes a lot longer than just 20 attempts.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Jdvn1]

If the players have had a couple battles in the dungeon, the other monsters might be aware they're there. If they don't all go after the party to overwhelm them, they'll beef up their defenses -- turn over tables to get cover, position themselves just right, ready actions for when the door opens...

 

[Storm Raven]

Because a one point difference between always impossible & always possible is, to me, silly. (N.B. that I don't have a problem in general with something being impossible for a particular character.)

But its not always impossible. The +4 character could have someone help him (using Aid Another) and succeed. He just needs more outside help than the better skilled +5 character.

 

[just__al]

Thirty seconds to kill the monsters in the room, then another hour and half to see if there are some gold pieces in a crack in the wall, makes perfect sense to me.

The funny thing is, the combat, in real life may take orders of magnatude longer than (in real life) the taking 20 on a search check.

 

[painandgreed]

So... What do you do to avoid this minor annoyance? Any good "realistic" reasons for the PCs to hurry through a dungeon? Maybe with enough examples, I can incorporate one into every dungeon crawl I run...

Wandering monsters, or rather wandering guards. Remember, the point of guards is not to keep people from entering through a door or kill the people who do, it's to scream really loudly so everybody can come and keep the people from getting through the door. The more time they spend looking around and making noise, and suspect that taking 20 while searchign a room makes a decent amount of noise, the more chance somebody will hear them and raise the alarm. Once the alarm is raised then the entire dungeon is on guard if nothing else. People will be watching or searching for the PCs and groups will most likely be helping eachother to do so. Several times* parties I've DMed have ended up basically fighting everything in the dungeon at once because they botched an attack on guards or spent too much time doing stuff like searching rather than clearing the dungeon. Any dungeon with a central leader who suspects they might be attacked by outside forces will have guards wandering around whose job will be to notifiy the rest of the dungeon, not defeat the party directly. Even if the PCs kill that wandering guard, when he doesn't show back up at his station in 10 more minutes, they'll start getting suspcious and notifying people.

*Once was in G3, the Hall of the Fire Giant. they totally missed the guard in the first hallway and he raised the alarm. All the giants in the main hall attacked and by time they started clearing them out, more were showing up from the rest of the complex. They barely escaped with their lives but still managed to put a serious hurt in the number of fire giants. The other was in Keep on the Borderlands. While trying unsuccessfully to burn the tapestries in the evil temple and chasing after the PC who refused to give up the cursed chalice and plate, the gong started sounding as per the adventure. Since they had killed the zombies and priest that were suppossed to be summoned by the gong, I decided it would call the remaining monsters out of their caves to defend the evil temple. made it clear what was happening by interrupting their argueing ever minute or two by screaming "BONNNG!". By time they had finally got their together and tried to leave, they were met by a bunch of orcs and gnolls with a minotaur in the front.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

break it up a little

The party has entered a 40ft cube room, a detect magic shows up some illusions, then BAM
"You find the floor tilting..."
"What?"
"Its starting to tilt, soon you find yourself at a very difficult angle to stand up"
"What?! Dont I get a chance to react?"
"At about 60% a few seconds have passed, you're now capable of acting, balance, climb, or a tumble check"
"Can I use jump?"
"Okay"
"The room keeps turning"
"We're stuffed"
"You are now on the roof, the doors seem to end with solid rock"
"We search for a lever, activation thingy, taking 20..."
"The floor starts moving, angling in the perpendicular to the former"
"..."
"The other way"
"Ummm...."
"You find yourself in a 40ft x40ft x 40ft room, each wall, floor, and ceiling has a hatch."
"Uh oh..."
(ooc) "OH SNAP! WE'RE IN THE CUBE!"

sometimes spending too much time in a room is bad

Please tell me you didn't actually do this to your group. Please....

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Because a one point difference between always impossible & always possible is, to me, silly. (N.B. that I don't have a problem in general with something being impossible for a particular character.)

Let's try this again.

The character with +4 on a certain skill check wants to succeed at a DC 25 task. He spends the next 4 hours making 1 check per round. What are his chances of succeeding at least once?

The character with a +5 on a certain skill check wants to succeed at a DC 25 task. He spends the next 4 hours making 1 check per round. What are his chances of succeeding at least once?

Explain how the Take 20 rule applies to the above situations.

Amen, I say to you, your problem is not the Take 20 rule. The Take 20 rule is just a convenient target for something you actually don't like.

*NOTE: Here's the answer to my above questions. The first character's chance of success is exactly 0%. He'll never, ever, ever, ever, EVER succeed at his task. The second character's chance of succeeding at least once is, for all intents and purposes, 100% after 10 minutes, let alone 4 hours.

 

[Patman21967]

The source of the problem

Even with an average room size of 30x40 (only 6x8 squares) and 10 rooms, that's 480 squares. At 2 minutes per square that's 960 minutes searching. Which is 16 hours! And, my dungeon rooms can often be larger so I can utilize more "stuff" in rooms to make it more interesting, long tunnels, high celings (do you search all 5' squares on the celing 15' up too?), and narrow ledges over precipices (do you climb down every hole you find and search those too??). Hehehe

Okay I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh. I feel sorry for everyone who has players who feel the need to search all these squares or actually feels the need themselves. I find that quite absurd, but maybe it goes along with the accounting many players feel the need for, since if they don't they might miss some loot. My group roleplays even in dungeons, they arn't going to search every crack in the wall for treasure, and if someone wanted to, the others will roll their eyes and just move on toward the actual adventure. Even if the players arn't bored, then their characters would be, and the characters don't want to be bored, they want to adventure!

Thirty seconds to kill the monsters in the room, then another hour and half to see if there are some gold pieces in a crack in the wall, makes perfect sense to me.

I hate to say it, but this stems from Computer and Video RPG's, where you can rest to regain spells and HP after every encounter, and have no problem with searching every object. Even the best Rogue, while in an unfamiliar setting, can miss something. I HATE the "take 20". I also hate players who must rest after casting a few spells...If they find a safe place, I allow them to rest, if they try to rest too much, I harass the crap out of them, with 1 Kobold at a time, to dirupt their rest. I GM a game, and play in one, the one I play in, I am a Rogue. I handle the searches, scouting, recon and all for our group. I NEVER "take 20" because, in character, I am a cocky fellow with a really good skill, so I ASSUME I will find it. The minute a fighter or a mage decides to take 20 to seach for something, is the minute I stop looking, or stop revealing what I find. I do not tell them how to swing their sword, or which spells to cast, they don't tell me how to search.

 

[Whimsical]

Hey all.
Here's my problem: On every dungeon crawl, every time my group of PCs clears a room, they take 20 on the Search checks... With a typical party of 5, spreadout in a standard room, this doesn't take much time at all.
Short of simply not allowing taking 20, what are some good ways to make time more relevant?

Oh, that's easy. Just remove any consequence in your game for not searching. Then inform your players of your decision. "You do not need to search for anything while playing in my game. I will describe any objects or clues of note in my descriptions of the area. For any hidden objects, doors, or traps, I will automatically assume that you have taken 20 to search them and inform you of them when you are within 10' of it." Not willing to do that? Then don't expect your PCs to stop searching. And expect them to try to circumvent any barriers or hinderences you set in place. After all, if you put the effort to hinder Search, then there must be something juicy here. As long as there are things to find, smart and dedicated players will put in the full effort to find them.