Stopping take 20 Searching.

[Storm Raven]

They could... but would they? I think that's the difference. Having them roll each and every check introduces the monotony of the characters' searching to the players of these characters.

Search checks, like many other types of checks in which the player/character has no idea if he failed or succeeded, should be rolled by the DM. If the player rolls the check, then he knows if he got a high roll or a low one, and can tell whether or not to keep looking quickly, which may give away information the DM doesn't want to give away.

All Take 20 does is remove the monotony of tediously rolling a bunch of checks.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Edit: As you can tell, I don't think your players are roleplaying their characters very well in this instance. "Take 20" searching every room? Meta/power-gaming at its finest.

Yeah. I mean their character sheets clearly say "this character is a reckless moron" right there in the 'notes' section.

You can't play a reckless moron and be cautious. That's just bad roleplaying.

If they said they wanted to take 20 to search every 5' of space, I'd remind they that they are heros not archaologists and get on with the game.

Yeah, because saying "I take 20 on my search" sure slows the game down a heap. And nothing's funnier than seeing the rogue get exploded because he couldn't take 20 searching the safe door that he was absolutely sure was trapped...

You can't take 20 when there is a danger associated with failure. Such as traps. This means that you can't take 20 when there are traps. Which is a cath-22, because the character can't know that there are traps until he searches for them, right?

No - you can't take 20 when failure will automatically mean a bad thing. If you fail to find a trap, nothing automatically bad happens - there is no rule that says "failing a search check sets off the trap". It's STANDING on the trap afterwards that is the danger.

So no problem whatsoever taking 20 on traps.

The Problem:

Sometimes you don't want the PC's to find everything in a room. If you're running a game set in a castle, involving courtly intrigue and a number of assassinations that begin occuring as the game progresses, then the fact that there are a number of secret passages riddling the castle walls could very well be a big deal. One that, while they should be found eventually, shouldn't necessarily be found right away. I've had at least one situation similar to this occur.

That's such an awesome plot in a game where "detect secret doors" is a first level spell.

I NEVER "take 20" because, in character, I am a cocky fellow with a really good skill, so I ASSUME I will find it. The minute a fighter or a mage decides to take 20 to seach for something, is the minute I stop looking, or stop revealing what I find. I do not tell them how to swing their sword, or which spells to cast, they don't tell me how to search.

Wow. Great team player you are.
I think this is the point where you are relying on PCitis to stay in the group - it shouldn't take long for them to say that 6 seconds of looking at a door that could potentially be fatal simply doesn't cut it, and getting shirty when people tell you that is just being a jerk, and the only reason that they don't do it is because "it's only a game".

 

[Saeviomagy]

They could... but would they? I think that's the difference. Having them roll each and every check introduces the monotony of the characters' searching to the players of these characters.

I think they would. I think the group would then blame you for a crappy roleplaying session where all they got to do was roll a d20 50 times.

Just like if you made them meticulously account for all their food - "You've all got enough food for the trip, unless anyone is already at their maximum carrying capacity" makes for a better game IMO.

Or if they encounter a non-intelligent foe that they can hurt, but that can't hurt them. "Just cross off 40 adamantine arrows, and the golem trapped in the small smooth-walled room is dead" is better than making them roll for each and every shot.

"Just take 20 searching for the trap" is far superior to making each and every roll.

Finally - if the Pc's have defeated every trap, and killed every monster, when they say "we give the complex another check to make sure we get everything", I'm going to let them find _everything_ that they can possibly find without putting themselves in direct danger (like - they're not going to find stuff hidden under lava without actually working through it).

 

[Gruns]

...

Whoa whoa whoa!
Again, this thread wasn't an attempt to discuss the merits or downsides of Taking 20!!! I have no problem with the take 20 rule! I dont need ways to get around it, ways to change it, ways to disallow it etc...
I just want more ways to make time matter! My problem is that I just can't think of enough reasons to keep the pressure on, so to speak. Thanks to the few of you who have given some ideas. This is what I was looking for! These will directly or indirectly be implemented into my game.
Feel free to add more. Just stop hijacking this thread to the realm of house-rules!
Later!
Gruns

 

[apesamongus]

I think they would. I think the group would then blame you for a crappy roleplaying session where all they got to do was roll a d20 50 times.

Exactly. Either they do or they eventually give up in frustration. "Monotony" and "frustration" are both words that should be kept as far away from a session as possible.

 

[Hurtfultater]

Whoa whoa whoa!
Again, this thread wasn't an attempt to discuss the merits or downsides of Taking 20!!! I have no problem with the take 20 rule! I dont need ways to get around it, ways to change it, ways to disallow it etc...
I just want more ways to make time matter! My problem is that I just can't think of enough reasons to keep the pressure on, so to speak. Thanks to the few of you who have given some ideas. This is what I was looking for! These will directly or indirectly be implemented into my game.
Feel free to add more. Just stop hijacking this thread to the realm of house-rules!
Later!
Gruns

Have you sat down with your players and talked with them about what you want from the game? I've never gone wrong by speaking explicitly with my group about the playstyle and genre conventions I'd like, and I've frequently wished I had. Your players may not know you want a more gung-ho style, or they may not see you as encouraging it in game.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Whoa whoa whoa!
Again, this thread wasn't an attempt to discuss the merits or downsides of Taking 20!!! I have no problem with the take 20 rule! I dont need ways to get around it, ways to change it, ways to disallow it etc...
I just want more ways to make time matter! My problem is that I just can't think of enough reasons to keep the pressure on, so to speak. Thanks to the few of you who have given some ideas. This is what I was looking for! These will directly or indirectly be implemented into my game.
Feel free to add more. Just stop hijacking this thread to the realm of house-rules!
Later!
Gruns

Regular patrols. Just have somebody go through the most used areas every 10 minutes or so doing a routine sweep. Give him a bell instead or as well as a weapon. First sign of intruders, Bing Bong! By making it regular you can also have the PCs on the lookout, and don't forget, if a sentry does not show up on his rounds somebody is going to check it out, if only to chew out the delinquent sentry.


The Auld Grump

 

[Orius]

I just want more ways to make time matter! My problem is that I just can't think of enough reasons to keep the pressure on, so to speak. Thanks to the few of you who have given some ideas. This is what I was looking for! These will directly or indirectly be implemented into my game.

Like other have said, pay close attention to things like spell durations, light sources, etc. Spells that have durations in minutes and hours will eventually end if the characters search a lot. Torches and lanterns will burn out. Eventually they'll get tired and need to rest, that sort of thing. Some players might get the hint and decide to press on and not waste time and resources.

It depends on the type of dungeon too. If the dungeon is in active use, the inhabitants will eventually blunder into the PCs. They can't take all their time searching stuff if guards, servant or whatever else are wandering around all over the place. Well, they can but someone will probably see them eventually and raise the alarm. After a few guard patrols, they might wise up, provided the guards aren't pushovers.

OTOH, if the dungeon is mostly abandoned, then doing a more thorough search isn't as likely to be interrupted. Use a variety of different locations so even if they do search every corner of an abandoned dungeon, they have more to do in the overall campaign then that.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I started this thread a few days ago, and just finished reading the replies.
My problem has nothing to do with the time (real life time) it takes to say "We take 20 Searching the room". The problem is that taking 20 makes traps, secret doors, hidden treasure/keys/clues etc all completely pointless. There's no reason to have a secret door if it's just going to discovered 100% of the time. (Or NOT discovered 100% of the time, which makes it just as pointless.) I like the PCs to find stuff, especially clues, but not if it requires no effort with very little risk.

Well, I'd disagree about the traps. The challenge with traps is not generally finding them. Rather, it's disabling them. So, even if you take 20 on the search, it doesn't negate the challenge and risk of the trap.

As for the other items--clues, secret doors, hidden treasure, etc they're not necessarily pointless if they aren't found. For instance, in one adventure I ran recently, a scarlet brotherhood assassin fled through a secret door. No PC was in the room to see him work it so the difference between finding it immediately and finding it in ten rounds or so was the difference between catching him and not catching him. With clues,

As for the suggestions given, none really work. It doesn't matter if the PCs run into the ambush now, or 2-3 minutes from now.

Unless they have a shield spell up now but won't 2-3 minutes later. Unless they have bull's strength now but won't 2-3 minutes later. Etc, etc. One good method for keeping take 20 actions to reasonable levels is to keep careful track of spell durations. The difference between being buffed to the 9s and unbuffed can be the difference between a cakewalk and a TPK in D&D. A party that realizes this is generally willing to take some risks.... Doing this means avoiding both the "ok, sure, you've still got shield up even after doing a take 20 search on 10 squares" and the "the battle's over; all of your minute per level spells go away" errors. The first removes one of the costs of taking 20. The second removes the benefit of moving quickly.

Basically, unless the PCs stealthed their way into and out of every room, the NPCs will know they're there. "Poisonous floors" would likely work, but just isn't very realistic or feasible.

There's a big difference between "The NPCS know we're here" and "The NPCs have had the opportunity to come up with a good plan, drink all their potions, cast all their buff spells, and attack us en masse/ set up a strong point, prebuff with minute per level spells, send some bait to lure us into the trap, and make a contingency plan in case we don't take the bait.

Time just isn't as relevant as I'd like it to be. (No, you aren't going to starve to death by spending an extra 3 hours in a dungeon.) Since I'm running out of events/dilemmas that make time matter, I was looking more for more (different) situations to apply to my adventures.
-Need to find antidote for victim dying in town.
-BBEG wakes up in 45 minutes.
-Holocaustic event of tremendous and certain doom happens precisely at midnight.
-Rival NPC party racing to get there first.
-...more?

How about these:
-There's a buyer for the mcguffin who is in town until tomorrow. (Maybe he has pressing business like a duel for which he wants the mcguffin). Get there too late and the Mcguffin is worthless. Oh, and it takes roughly half a day to get to the dungeon with the Mcguffin and half a day to get back. You can spend an extra three hours searching, but then you'll need to hustle and forced march if you want to make it back in time to sell it. (And, of course the ambush by the bandits who figured they'd let you get the Mcguffin and then take it from you occurs right next to town so if you search normally you're fine but if you took 20, you're probably exhausted).
-You need to secure the embarrassing letters before the wedding. Don't get them in time and the princess will marry Prince Humperdink because she doesn't have the evidence of his true character.
-The hippogriff bounty is only offered for one more week. After that, the government will take stock of the situation and evaluate whether it's worth continuing the bounty or whether their numbers are thinned enough that they no longer menace commerce and agriculture.
-There's an important duel (maybe one of the PCs is in it). They need to gather materials for a sword. This requires exploring several locations, all of which are large enough that taking 20 is the difference between 2 hours and 2 days of searching. Since it takes one day per plus to enhance a sword, they can get a +2 sword (or +1 flaming) if they hurry, but are stuck with a +1 sword if they take 20.
-The trial/execution is tomorrow and the PCs need to exonerate their ally by then. [Or it could be in hours, but that's a pretty darn harsh time frame].
-There are two big fights in the dungeon and they're close enough together that minute/level spells will still be active if you hurry but they won't be if you don't.
-The invincible guardians of doom will be away from the vault for one hour because the stellar conjunction negates their magic/the spell works for that long/that's how long the "entertainment" hired by the thieve's guild takes. You have that long to get in, out, and remove the evidence you were ever there.
-The orcish reinforcements will be arriving in roughly two days. It will probably take you a day and a half to reach the fort/caves. You have to kill them all, destroy the fort/encampment, loot the place, rescue the prisoners, and be gone by the time the reinforcements arrive.
-Two minutes after you win the first battle, I will release the hounds of doom who will pursue you. Tarry too long and they will catch you.
-"It's a trap! Take this message to the general and warn him before he opens the vault of the abyss!"