D&D General Story Now, Skilled Play, and Elephants

The reason I went with spectrum there is that even in PbtA play my level of 'prep' which may or may not equal 'story' at some point, kind of varies by group, genre and format. So even when I'm playing to find out, there's a real range of what I deem necessary, as GM, to have at least available prior to play. I don't preference that prep at all, but sometimes, and in some genres, I need a lot more on-hand prep to run the game well. Obviously that's in terms of PbtA, not, say, high-prep D&D.

Prep and story are not the same though (in my opinion of course). Prep establishes something that is true in the fiction. Story is about what will happen. You can play to find out what happens at all sorts of different levels of prep. The main thing is being a curious explorer of the fiction rather than motivated by particular outcomes. Creating scenarios that are meant to be engaged in whatever way the players want to.
 

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Prep and story are not the same though (in my opinion of course). Prep establishes something that is true in the fiction. Story is about what will happen. You can play to find out what happens at all sorts of different levels of prep. The main thing is being a curious explorer of the fiction rather than motivated by particular outcomes. Creating scenarios that are meant to be engaged in whatever way the players want to.
Well, lets call it prep in terms of what might happen. Not as framing or consequences, but as ways things might be connected. You throw out some extra bread crumbs in the directions ypu think might be the beaten path. Sometimes they get used, sometimes they dont. For me this is more common in games with a mystery element where I have to tie a lot of disparate elements together.
 

Prep and story are not the same though (in my opinion of course). Prep establishes something that is true in the fiction. Story is about what will happen. You can play to find out what happens at all sorts of different levels of prep. The main thing is being a curious explorer of the fiction rather than motivated by particular outcomes. Creating scenarios that are meant to be engaged in whatever way the players want to.
I think an interesting variant (not sure that's the right word?) on what you say here is an approach that I associated with Prince Valiant, Marvel Heroic RP and The Green Knight (in each case, I mean as published).

The prep consists in establishing a group of scenes. Each scene has a fairly hard starting point established in advance. Each scene is open-ended in how it resolves, and that resolution will reveal something about the values/orientation-to-theme/development/etc of the PCs. The amount of narrative follow-through from scene to scene - other than the consequences for the PCs - is modest. This is what enables the scenes to be prepped in advance without having to dictate a resolution.

The final scene is generally a climax that resolves whatever conflict/question was kicked off in the first scene. Relative to this climax the preceding scenes are primarily colour (not exclusively, given (i) consequences for PCs, and (ii) the possibility of modest narrative follow-through).

There are also hints of this approach in Agon 2nd ed, though the specification of the scenes is less and this is (at least in part) to make room for a greater degree of narrative follow-through from scene to scene.

I think the effect of this sort of approach is to give "the story" a somewhat dreamlike quality. It's kind-of the opposite to the feel of a Mission Impossible or similar adventure where everything turns out to have been connected to, or be a foreshadowing for, something else. I think it also sits on an interesting cusp between player protagonism and railroading.
 

So, let's look at Tomb of Horrors, played with D&D as the ruleset, but by two groups - one in Gygaxian mode, and one in dramatic mode. We must accept that D&D doesn't have a lot of tools for the players to work dramatic play, but the players are trying it anyway.

<snip>

The Players are working with whatever they brought in with them....

Folks here have seen the Brendan Frasier/Rachel Weis The Mummy, from 1999? Maybe that's what Tomb of Horrors looks like - the characters work through inter-personal relationships with the stresses of danger as a sort of driving inspiration. Gygaxian players may wonder why there's, oh, a budding romance developing while figuring out if someone's getting disintegrated by a Sphere of Annihilation, but hey....
I've experienced this sort of "dramatic mode" in AD&D play. To me those memories drive home that both the mechanical resources and the broader suite of techniques of AD&D just aren't very good for the job. (As you suggest in the second quoted sentence.)
 

I've experienced this sort of "dramatic mode" in AD&D play. To me those memories drive home that both the mechanical resources and the broader suite of techniques of AD&D just aren't very good for the job. (As you suggest in the second quoted sentence.)
I notice that dramatic-mode games (using the label broadly) tend to be driven by one expressive core stochastic method. By expressive, I mean that the one method delivers more than binary outcomes (e.g., succeed, succeed at cost, fail and suffer consequences**). Some advantages of having one expressive core method are that it can be applied flexibly to any narrative situation. A simulationist - given their purposes are different from a dramatist - might criticise it as unvaried, because it handles diverse actions and events under one method.

That is something I referred to in my OP - that 5e is partway there to offering an expressive core stochastic method. It might be that in future we see the paths come together again. It seems likely to me that one branch will continue to prefer methods that feel different for skills versus combat. On top of that, I believe other branches will prefer to see methods to better structure exploration. I personally wonder if we might not see some advances in modelling social interaction.

Therefore (per my OP) I'm optimistic about seeing systems offering two, three or even four core methods (one of which being process rather than resolution) in future, that can be oriented to in multiple modes. Add a magic-tech system, and perhaps that makes it five (a second process method and a modified way of using one of your resolution methods, possibly*).



*Note this is high-level, you can always quibble system deconstruction.
** Designs that currently excite me are DW and WWN. Also, I like 5e a great deal. The former two are grouped by the common factor - 'excites me' - not by their design intents or mechanics.
 
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If, by "exogenous", you mean the game designers didn't write them down (eg because they forgot to, or because they thought they were self-evident, or it didn't occur to them that anyone might try and play the game a different way), then sure. I think everyone agrees that OD&D and AD&D are not complete games as published - you can't play them as their designers conceived of them without bringing in some knowledge that the texts don't give you.

But there is another sense of "exogenous" which I don't think is apt here. For instance, in backgammon if your have a 6 and 1 as your opening roll then there is a best move. But that statement of principle is exogenous to the game-as-artefact in the sense that (i) it is not stated in the rules, is not implicit in the rules as stated, and is not entailed by the rules as stated, and (ii) you can play backgammon, and perhaps even win backgammon, without adhering to or even being aware of that principle. The principle is ultimately a probability-based generalisation that takes the rules as a given and assumes winning as a goal: if you get the chance to make this move (by rolling 6 and 1), and then do make it, you are more likely to win the game then if you use that 6 and 1 to make some other move. I can't speak as confidently about chess as backgammon, but I think principles that govern openings and development can probably be compared to the one I've described for backgammon.

It's an interesting feature of these, and many other, games that - having stated rules for them, including win conditions - these other principles emerge. Gygaxian skilled play gives rise to similar principles - for instance, there are more or less optimal gear load outs and spell load outs, and while some of these are going to be very context dependent some can be generalised with a reasonably high degree of stability (eg all else being equal, Sleep is a better spell to memorise than Affect Normal Fires).

But the principles and techniques that are necessary to actually be playing Gygaxian skilled play at all are not like this. They are presupposed by the game rules as stated, and in that fashion are entailed by those rules: the rules don't make sense, and won't support the win condition of the game - ie acquiring skill to earn XP and thereby demonstrate one's skill at play - unless understood in light of, and applied in accordance with, those principles and techniques.

To try and talk about Gygaxian skilled play while keeping those principles and techniques out of the discussion, and only talking about the content of the rulebooks, will be fruitless. The rulebooks are incomplete, in a way that the rules for chess and backgammon simply are not. (The comparison is like one between modern recipes, which are complete, and mediaeval or early modern recipes which say things like "Take a pig, butcher it and cook it." I don't know much about the history of recipes, but for game rules I assume that Hoyle is or is near the beginning of attempts to state rules completely. Gygax's attempts to write down the rules of his game are simply not up to Hoyle standards.)

In my previous post I said "I don't agree". I'll finish this post by saying that I'm not really sure of where you're trying to head. If the point is that Gygax's rules are incomplete, then I think that's true and very widely acknowledged (and very widely acknowledged now for decades - Ron Edwards wrote interesting stuff about that point 20-odd years ago, and can't have been the first). But if you are asserting that we can discuss what is written in Gygax's rulebooks, and from that alone get some insight into Gygaxian skilled play without having to have regard to the unstated but crucial and presupposed principles and techniques of play, then it's still the case that I don't agree.

If your point is neither of the above then I apologise for not having followed it.
If nothing else came out of this thread, at least this was clearly articulated, lol. This is why I found Dungeon World particularly illuminating, in that PbtA clearly understands this and PbtA games pretty universally state their goals and principles outright in a concrete way. One which visibly and (usually) pretty seamlessly integrates with the mechanics governing play to form a complete whole.

I agree with @clearstream's observation of the existence of a 'circle' of participation, a community of play into which we join when we engage in a game where, ideally, there is a mutually shared agenda and principles of play. This is generally not too hard in organized sport, where each participant engages in the unspoken agreement to play their hardest to win. Not because winning is really the ultimate goal, but because it drives forward the real agenda of the game, which in the end is its participatory nature itself. RPGs are just a bit more murky than sports, you can easily get lost in the weeds, and there are a lot of possible approaches to a game, but ideally it works the same way.

And that is why I personally also FAVOR those sorts of games which are explicit about it. Success is much more easily grasped. OTOH they require a bit more buy in. An OD&D game will work even with a trouble maker. There will be trouble, but that might even enhance the game if you're lucky. It will pretty much derail a DW game, and it need not happy advertently.
 

I'm just going to rattle some thoughts out there (everyone is safe from my typical bullet-point massacre so have no fear):

(As you know) I agree with you that skilled play is a matter of agenda. When you're designing a game (and certainly playing it) you need to know the first principles that underwrite the design and the play of the game (here I'm not talking about the principles that undergird individual moves made by participants...I'm talking about the founding document/mission statement/the substrate etc upon which a gaming edifice is erected).

However, while the moments of play are fundamentally informed by those 1st principles (that agenda), the entire structure should work as a feedback loop, continuously responsive to and integrated with what came before it (and what it will feed into). The entire loop of play is made up of moments, entangled and integrated with each other (the preceding moments and the moments these moments feed into) and the throughline of agenda.

Finally, forget whether one feels that the trajectory of a by-the-book DW game is informed by (at least in part) a skilled play agenda. I am certain that Torchbearer, Blades in the Dark, and my 4e games are "challenge-based games where gamestate and PC trajectory is inextricably wedded to theme and premise." Despite my Forge support on the bulk of its analysis and hypotheses, this is where I diverge from Forge Incoherency Hypothesis (Gamism and Narrativism can be functionally married). Step on Up and Story Now agendas cannot be disentangled from one another in the cases of these games. To attempt to do so and then accurately describe the play of these games leaves you in a wasteland of insufficient language (which feeds back into a problem of information deficit when future folks try to duplicate what these designs coherently achieved).

Pulling this all together, I look at this similarly to the way you used to depict a Paladin At-Will in 4e.

Valiant Strike - Paladin Attack 1​

You attack a foe, gaining strength from your conviction as the odds against you rise.

At-WillDivine, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC. You gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to the number of enemies adjacent to you.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.


I'm valiant (the agenda is to make a valiant paladin) because I stand before many foes.

My conviction gains strength as the odds stand against me (the theme of the power).

The mechanics say so...therefore I'm incentivized to play boldly with thematic coherency (the feedback loop).


The agenda informs moments of play and each moment of play is responsive to and integrated with what came before it and will feed into the next...creating a loop.

You can have all the agenda in the world that you want, but the design has to work at the "moments of play level" so that the feedback loop is coherent and functional. Yet another thought: this is why I fought so hard in 5e's playtest to have its encounter budgeting informed at the encounter level...NOT at the Adventuring Day level. Because I knew the impact that would be wrought at the "moments of play level" and the feedback loop it would engender. And folks argued with me like crazy back then about this. And sure enough, a massive contingent (including many that argued against me 8-9 years ago) have spent the last 5 years decrying various aspects of CR/Encounter Budget/disparate PC ability rationing and how sensitive the game is to Short Rest/Long Rest dynamics.

This is a perfect example of a sort of rudderless or incomprehensible agenda (when it comes to intraparty balance and party : Team Monster balance at the most fundamental site of conflict in D&D; the combat) wedded to a somewhat rudderless appeal to traditional and familiar Adventuring Day design (traditional and familiar for traditional and familiar leading to traditional and familiar for more traditional and familiar). Alternatively, they could have encoded this design with a clear, rudder...ful(?) agenda and then designed at the Encounter Level. As yet another alternative, they could have just said "you know what...lets balance at the Encounter Level and work up from there" and that would have inevitably led like an implacable divining rod to only one agenda; intraparty balance and Team PC : Team Monster balance at the encounter level for intuitive results for the GM (this is GM-side tech...not player) so they can more easily build dynamic, interesting, diverse combats with relatively predictable, desirable, climactic results for the designer/GM (so if you're designing a combat that is supposed to have all kinds of movement, terrain interaction, hazard navigation, forcing artillery out of fixed positions, a powerful leader who is protected by all the prior + other things like guardians with synergized movesets...and all of this should build and lead to a feeling of "you're absolutely fighting for your life so if you don't push the accelerator to the floor and skillfully marshal every_possible_resource...you're toast").

So I don't see how functional design and analysis can persist without examination at both the agenda level and the more intricate "moments of play" level (+ the intricate design that informs the granular aspects of those moments of play).




That is a mangled pile of words. Hopefully they're comprehensible (even if you disagree).
I know this was posted last week, which might as well be 10 Centuries Ago in discussion forum land, but I think it does jibe well with my own understanding of game development process. It isn't even entirely unique to RPGs. If you have developed board games or wargames you will find that a lot of the same kinds of thought process and design process are necessary.

The actual 'rubber meets the road' pieces of design, like the power in your example, have to build on the agenda, support it, and be based on it. I mean, you can have a power that is pretty generic and just does some damage. The paladin could have that power. It probably isn't his main thing. Maybe it provides a fallback that has some setup value or just serves as an 'MBA' for various situations, but powers like Valiant Strike are always there to pull you into 'Playing like a Paladin'. Getting this kind of thing right can prove to be somewhat arduous in a game with a lot of options.
 

I know this was posted last week, which might as well be 10 Centuries Ago in discussion forum land, but I think it does jibe well with my own understanding of game development process. It isn't even entirely unique to RPGs. If you have developed board games or wargames you will find that a lot of the same kinds of thought process and design process are necessary.

The actual 'rubber meets the road' pieces of design, like the power in your example, have to build on the agenda, support it, and be based on it. I mean, you can have a power that is pretty generic and just does some damage. The paladin could have that power. It probably isn't his main thing. Maybe it provides a fallback that has some setup value or just serves as an 'MBA' for various situations, but powers like Valiant Strike are always there to pull you into 'Playing like a Paladin'. Getting this kind of thing right can prove to be somewhat arduous in a game with a lot of options.
What do you think of the thought-worm in Earthdawn as an example of compelling design? Not related to the modes of play we have been discussing, but rather to the job of getting players to live the sinister manipulation that horrors ought to be capable of. Another example might be Wrath of God in MtG. It's symmetrical, destructive design puts in play an idea of divine justice. Again, I'm not thinking here about modes of play specifically, more about motivated designs.

Were prototypes of Valiant Strike different from the published version? I wonder, because one can see that the published version is manageable in play (4e pushes toward miniatures and grids, so simply - count adjacent enemies.) But say we are surrounded by minions - they're not really a threat - ideally one might prefer not to scale the at-will. On the other hand, each published mechanic has a cost. I would guess that the effort to prototype, test, refine and balance this one made the payoff worth it. It is easy to parse and the effect is unlikely to get crazy. It reminds me of Virus (CE) for some reason.

In another thread I used the term gameful narrative (much to the mystification of others). The atoms of gameful narrative are these designs that pull you into a world-concept that their designer has grasped and formed into the mechanic. Collectively - the chosen set of mechanics - forms a marvelous machine: an author of a department in Borges' Library of Babel.
 

So... I'm bypassing the rest, because the most meaningful thing may be here - you consider story-based play to be "allow the GM to tell you a story"?

Because I very much don't. And if we disagree on that point, this becomes the central bit.
Yeah, I know I'm still a few days behind on this thread, but I gotta say, that @Ovinomancer kinda raised a flag with that statement IMHO. PbtA games (Certainly DW which I'm really familiar with) are GIVE AND TAKE on story. The GM frames everything, but the game process/agenda GUIDES and INFORMS what that framing is! It isn't some sort of contest between the GM and the players to 'wrest control of the narrative' or something.

In DW the player picks 'Wizard' for his PC, and then maybe he picks 'Neutral: learn something about a magical mystery' and a bond like 'The fighter is woefully misinformed about the world; I will teach them all that I can.' There will be questions asked too, so some background established. The GM can only draw from that stuff, and the other players stuff to make the story, but none of that is "the player wresting control of the narrative" or even attempting to constrain the GM, it is INFORMING the GM and GUIDING the GM as to what the player wants to find out when he plays!
 

As someone who runs a regular DW game, I agree--and I think practical demonstration is in order.

I've run a weekly Arabian Nights flavored Dungeon World game for about three years. (It still feels weird that it's been that long.) We tend to be not super strict about following the "correct" play of DW--that is, players sometimes think in terms of moves rather than in terms of fiction, and I don't admonish them for doing so--but by and large we try to keep focused on what's happening, the "...what do you do?" question, etc.

As GM, I am not at absolute liberty to establish whatever story I want. I have an awful lot of leeway for anything that hasn't been touched on yet, of which there is plenty. But there are several moves, both generic and specific, that constrain what I'm allowed to do, and there are under-the-hood things that constrain my behavior further. These things are not the Agendas or Principles that the book defines for me; these are actual rules which set the terms of my behavior as a GM. I'll give three examples: the Discern Realities move (effectively Perception rolls from D&D), the Bardic Lore move from the Bard class, and the distinction between Soft and Hard moves and when I'm allowed to use each in response to player actions.

Discern Realities is what the characters are doing when they make a focused, discrete effort to obtain more information about the world around them. As DW says, "you have to do it to do it": they shouldn't just declare "I'm discerning realities," instead the player should say, "I see the dresser. Does it have any disturbed dust on it? Are there any drawer handles that look shiny? How about the floor, does it look scraped like something's been moved a lot?" or something similar. Such questions mean the character is actually examining the world, and that triggers the following move.

As part of the GM side of these rules, I must answer these questions truthfully. I'm not allowed to lie--unless the roll is a miss, but I don't lie then either, I do something else (which I'll explain later). Now, just because I can't speak untruthful things, doesn't mean I can't leave out information if the characters wouldn't have any reason to perceive it, so I can still maintain some mysteries. But my freedom to act as a storyteller is expressly limited by these questions, and the rules expressly direct me to invent answers, where necessary, to make the result of partial (7-9) or full (10+) success interesting. That is a practical application of the Principles and Agendas, but not actually either of those things directly.

Now, compare this to the Bardic Lore class move:

Note, again, that I am constrained to answer truthfully, but this time it can be ANY question. Of course, the player is also constrained in two ways, the first being the nature of the entity (it must be in their area of expertise) and that it be their first time encountering it, the second that I, as GM, am then empowered to ask where the Bard learned this from, and the player must thus answer me truthfully. Thus, even though both of us are "inventing story," neither of us does so with free rein. We are constrained by what the rules permit us to do. This then leads to the possibility of, for example, developing the skill of "asking good questions," and the skill of "improvising explanations." The rules shape what we're allowed to make up stories about--both the players and the GM.

Finally, the distinction between "hard" and "soft" moves. To start, the GM making a move is structured in the "move" format:

A "hard" move is one with immediate consequences; a "soft" move is one without immediate consequences. So, for example, dealing damage to a character is definitionally a hard move, because that's a direct effect that will require effort or resources to overcome. The soft-move equivalent of dealing damage is to threaten a character with something: a trap springs, a monster swipes, the Duke stands to speak, etc. There are a variety of GM move concepts, such as "reveal an unwelcome truth" or "offer an opportunity, with or without cost." Notably, as GM, I am not allowed to simply inflict hard moves whenever I like--there must always be some trigger in the fiction for them, which generally (read: almost always) means the players either give me a golden opportunity (e.g. by ignoring a soft move I've already made) or, more commonly, by rolling poorly. I can, however, choose to use a soft move instead of a hard one if that makes more sense. My ability to weave a fiction--to tell a story--is heavily restricted by NOT being allowed to fling out whatever consequences I like.

As a practical example of a hard move, I offer my solution to the "problem" of missed Discern Realities rolls. See...Discern Realities doesn't give you a good notion of what "failure" should mean, particularly since Dungeon World is fail-forward in its philosophy. The first DW game I played in, another player (gently) exploited this loophole for some (effectively) free XP. And I couldn't blame him, but it did make me wonder what I should do to forestall this while dodging the stereotypical problems of Perception-type rolls. And then it hit me...I just needed to make a hard version of the "reveal an unwelcome truth" move. So, whenever the party rolls badly on Discern Realities, I tell them they MUST ask me one of the questions....but they'll get an answer they won't like. It will be completely true, but it will reveal that the problem is more dire than they expected, or that something troubling is going on, etc. This is generally a hard move because its consequences are immediate (they learn a true but bad thing right now), but it could be a soft move if the party can still forestall the problem (e.g. "the cultists are almost finished with their summoning ritual--you're almost out of time!")

Within this rules framework, our goal is still always to generate "the fiction" to our enjoyment--to tell a story. But that story is mediated through a set of rules that, in some cases, rigidly determine what things the players are allowed to do, and what things I as DM am allowed to do. Sometimes, I'm forbidden to do things (like making hard moves when the players haven't missed a roll nor given me a golden opportunity), sometimes I'm required to do things (like truthfully answer questions, or give a piece of information that is interesting and useful, etc.) Because there are these few but bright lines, it seems to me that there can quite easily be a sense of "skilled play," of leveraging the things you can (and can't!) do to achieve certain mechanical ends, even though those ends always and intentionally flow back into the story-telling experience that is the focus of play.
I guess I don't like the terminology 'constraining', as if the players and the GM are really wrestling for leverage on the narrative. Yes, the players presumably want to see the PC's goals achieved, and to earn XP and thus advance in level. However, the GM isn't at all opposed to this. Her job is only to make it interesting and challenging. The players can tell the GM what they want the story to be about. Maybe by how they answer questions, or maybe by how they ASK questions, and certainly by which fictional actions they take.

I think the admonition against players describing their character's actions in terms of MOVES (and the GM is never ever supposed to name his moves either) is important here. The GM ALWAYS has a certain leeway in terms of how he frames the action. VERY VERY often he can decide that you are Defying Danger vs Hack & Slashing, for example. This is a pretty significant mechanical distinction! Now, maybe there are cases where a clever player can skillfully limit the options of the GM to say, Hack & Slash. I agree this is skill, but given the GM's agenda of being a fan of the players and play to see what happens, this doesn't seem like CONTROL, and in fact it is just as likely the GM will naturally want the same things as the players!

There is clearly skill here. It could take a couple of forms, but I don't think DW is fundamentally ABOUT skilled play in any mechanical sense, except maybe "I am good at maximizing our achieving of our mutual agendas by way of getting certain moves to happen." To go back to @Manbearcat's talk about 'win cons' in another thread, I don't think there REALLY are 'win cons' in a hard sense in DW. You may want to get XP, level up, and achieve the PC's goals, but you don't WIN by doing that. It may put some added tools in your toolchest by opening up some additional moves, or get you some gear, or something, but DW works fine without even leveling. I think the XP/Leveling system is useful, but it is not actually pivotal to DW like it is to D&D.
 

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