D&D General Story Now, Skilled Play, and Elephants

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The B/X DM is not working in opposition to the players. B/X requires and demands fair and impartial adjudication, not so much PvDM.

The system can "demand" all it wants (which is none, because it isn't sentient - it is words on a page). But, as a practical matter, it cannot enforce anything. All actual demands and constraints are consensus agreement by people at the table, not the system.

And people at the table are flawed humans, and sometimes they do things that are "improper". So, that DM may darned well choose to work in opposition to players - that DM has a human ego, and they may express it in that fashion.

To think other than in such practical terms gets us into "no true Scotsman" territory in discussion - "well, they were not playing PURE B/X, so we can ignore that case" despite however common that case might be.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
The system can "demand" all it wants (which is none, because it isn't sentient - it is words on a page). But, as a practical matter, it cannot enforce anything. All actual demands and constraints are consensus agreement by people at the table, not the system.

And people at the table are flawed humans, and sometimes they do things that are "improper". So, that DM may darned well choose to work in opposition to players - that DM has a human ego, and they may express it in that fashion.

To think other than in such practical terms gets us into "no true Scotsman" territory in discussion - "well, they were not playing PURE B/X, so we can ignore that case" despite however common that case might be.
I think that's why I prefer discussing in terms of design principles, intent, or good faith play. If the human element just stone walls any discussion of differences play between systems then there's little point discussing how games cultivate different experiences.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The system can "demand" all it wants (which is none, because it isn't sentient - it is words on a page). But, as a practical matter, it cannot enforce anything. All actual demands and constraints are consensus agreement by people at the table, not the system.

And people at the table are flawed humans, and sometimes they do things that are "improper". So, that DM may darned well choose to work in opposition to players - that DM has a human ego, and they may express it in that fashion.

To think other than in such practical terms gets us into "no true Scotsman" territory in discussion - "well, they were not playing PURE B/X, so we can ignore that case" despite however common that case might be.
That's not quite what I meant. When I say the 'system demands' I obviously agree that the system isn't actually demanding anything. However, the rules do index a particular style of adjudication, made clear in the rules. Of course some DMs might fly their own way there, but that doesn't mean that doing so produces a good result at the table. If it does, perfect, because this isn't a gatekeep-y kind of idea. However, the fact that someone can run B/X in an adversarial way doesn't mean they should, or that that decision is equally useful or appropriate in a general sense (although that last bit is straying into the realm of opinion). Fair and impartial adjudication is a key concept for B/X play and IMO an adversarial approach by the DM puts that on its ear, or at least very well could.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think that's why I prefer discussing in terms of design principles, intent, or good faith play.

In so doing, you get into "ivory tower" discussion, divorced from real-world practice. I agree that it is simpler, and sometimes clarifies things, but it is also the "spherical cow in a vacuum" of gaming.

If the human element just stone walls any discussion of differences play

I raise a point of complexity, and it becomes "stonewall any discussion..." Adversarial DMs were and are a pretty common experience - Gygax's own writings imply adversarial relationships at times. You want to dismiss that?

between systems then there's little point discussing how games cultivate different experiences.

I think the point is that humans cultivate things. Systems are our tools. Talking about failure modes and flawed play is just as important to cultivating actual experiences at tables.
 
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clearstream

(He, Him)
Of course some DMs might fly their own way there, but that doesn't mean that doing so produces a good result at the table. If it does, perfect, because this isn't a gatekeep-y kind of idea.
I believe some DMs grasp the given principle in the same way, and choose to fly their own way. Others grasp the principle in a different way, and fly that way: for them it is other DMs that are flying their own way. And this difference impacts on their participation in the discourse.
 

Aldarc

Legend
In so doing, you get into "ivory tower" discussion, divorced from real-world practice. I agree that it is simpler, and sometimes clarifies things, but it is also the "spherical cow in a vacuum" of gaming.

I raise a point of complexity, and it becomes "stonewall any discussion..." Adversarial DMs were and are a pretty common experience - Gygax's own writings imply adversarial relationships at times.

I think the point is that humans cultivate things. Talking about failure modes and flawed play is just as important to cultivating actual experiences at tables.
Umbran, your post is coming across to me as more adversarial than it needs to be, and it does feel like you are trying to escalate things more than I intended, and I am sorry if that wasn't clear in my own post. And maybe you may not feel that you are, and it's just how I am reading your post, but I want to be clear either way on that point. I have no intention of going toe-to-toe with a mod.

I am not proposing "ivory tower" discussions or suggesting that we divorce discussion from real world practice. I merely indicated my preference for discussing systems in terms of healthy, good faith play and their design principles. A lot of @pemerton or @Manbearcat's play reports are interesting to read, for me at least, because they do showcase in practice good faith play of their respective games and associated principles.

It feels to me like a bit of a truism to suggest that people are able to do with a game whatever they wish and that the system can't do anything to enforce it. I'm not sure if this has been under question. Bad faith play can obviously happen. Humans can also be dicks to each other in games. It's your table. But that is also part of the reason why I prefer talking about the system and its principles. Not because it's ivory tower or a spherical cow in a vacuum, but because we have the system and its principles is really the only shared point of data or frame of reference that we can discuss together as our people situation is not the same. That added complexity throws a potential wrench in a lot of things.

An appeal to human element of adversarial relationships and bad faith is not always an argument in favor of actual practice. In my experience, here it can quite nebulous and as much of a white room discussion of hypothetical bad faith play. Part of my own reticence for such white room talk of adversarial relationships or bad faith play stems from unproductive discussions that I had about Fate here with some posters.

I hope that clarifies my point.
 

I believe some DMs grasp the given principle in the same way, and choose to fly their own way. Others grasp the principle in a different way, and fly that way: for them it is other DMs that are flying their own way. And this difference impacts on their participation in the discourse.
And when it comes to the title of this thread and there being different things for different DMs well I've seen a horse fly, I've seen a house fly, I've even seen a green fly. But I ain't never seen an elephant fly.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
In so doing, you get into "ivory tower" discussion, divorced from real-world practice. I agree that it is simpler, and sometimes clarifies things, but it is also the "spherical cow in a vacuum" of gaming.
Wait, looking at the systems as designed is "ivory tower" while whatever set of individual and idiosyncratic changes are made at any given table is "real world." This, to me, is the pit trap of starting from the position that RPGs are meant to be homebrewed -- it discards the idea that the base game is actually a real thing and that you must change it for it to be complete. While this is true of some games -- 5e in particular is an incomplete design because it bakes in "insert your GM here" as a large part of the glue in the system, but games like B/X are very complete. If you run B/X as the book says, there will be few areas you need to adapt and the rules will absolutely work as designed. This concept that you're supposed to not like the base game and change it until you do is, to me, a crutch to avoid actually looking at how games work. This argument continues into claiming looking at games as designed is "ivory tower," an anti-intellectual dog whistle statement, while games as changed are "real world," despite there being no rhyme or reason to changes other than personal preference.

Shouldn't changes be rooted in an full understanding of the system as designed, rather then the approach that says the system as design is a mythical construct to be ignored in any discussion?
I raise a point of complexity, and it becomes "stonewall any discussion..." Adversarial DMs were and are a pretty common experience - Gygax's own writings imply adversarial relationships at times. You want to dismiss that?
That's because this is what you're doing. And saying "complexity" is the same as the gamut of idiosyncratic changes made at individual tables is quite a leap as well. What you're proposing here is that there's no definable baseline because of these changes, that the game as played is some creation of the game as designed and all of the possible changes that people might make to it. This is trying to shut down discussion, because it introduces the easy argument for any point that people can and probably have changed the system so that point is now moot.
I think the point is that humans cultivate things. Talking about failure modes and flawed play is just as important to cultivating actual experiences at tables.
Sure it is, but not to talking about how systems as designed work. These points are great for talking about how people can fail, and ways to avoid that failure, which, oddly, is often using the system as designed rather than with the changes they've made. Or selecting a system that does what they want to start with. What you're introducing here is that people can fail (trivial and banal point), therefore those failures moot any discussion of performance as designed. If someone can fail, then the system is a failure, essentially. This isn't at all true, because people quite often do operate these systems without failing. Discussion of how the system works without failure modes is very valuable, and shouldn't be discounted because people can fail at it. This is like saying all pizza should just be considered burnt because people can fail at making pizza and burn it. If I want to talk about the best ways to make pizza, I'm not looking at cases where people burnt their pizza -- that's a clear failure at making pizza, and I'm talking about how to do it well.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I believe some DMs grasp the given principle in the same way, and choose to fly their own way. Others grasp the principle in a different way, and fly that way: for them it is other DMs that are flying their own way. And this difference impacts on their participation in the discourse.
Sure, but in both cases the decision should be set next to the base default assumptions laid out in the game. The default assumption in B/X is not an adversarial DM, that was my whole point. Obviously some people will make different decisions, but that isn't really that important if you're talking about the game generally, only in those specific instances.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Sure, but in both cases the decision should be set next to the base default assumptions laid out in the game. The default assumption in B/X is not an adversarial DM, that was my whole point. Obviously some people will make different decisions, but that isn't really that important if you're talking about the game generally, only in those specific instances.
What I mean is that some people read the same words, and understand them to mean a different thing. We see that again and again confirmed on these boards, in discussions over what rules are, and what principles are. It's not just that group A are right and group B know that group A are right, but choose to do something different anyway (which of course happens), but also that group A are right - given their reading - and group B are right - given their reading. They are working to differing defaults derived from differing interpretations of the same game-artifacts
 

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