D&D General Story Now, Skilled Play, and Elephants

Thomas Shey

Legend
I'm not sure why that is problematic. In a classic D&D game you could implement your inventory that way. You pick 'adventuring gear' and the GM says "OK, it weighs 42 lbs and cost 25 GP" and then you get to pick within those constraints as you go along. I mean, there are valid objections that can be lodged in terms of skilled play, etc. but they get down into the weeds of exactly how you define those things, so not clearly breaking that paradigm.

I don't think it is. I was just answering the question regarding rolling multiple times for equipment not brought as compared to using something of a metacurrency. There's a limiting factor, its just a factor that has an in-world meaning.

Oh, I'm sure absolutely anything would be a problem for SOMEONE. Probably someone on this thread! :)

I'm just noting you can't completely blow off the temporality issue with an immersive player. They may have some give here, but its unlikely to be unlimited.

Yeah, and I'm not a fire eater when it comes to what I want out of play either. I do feel its lack when it isn't there though, sometimes acutely.

Well, the issue with me is I want a lot of different things out of play at different times, so I don't have a super-strong dedication to any one of them (though I've reached the point where I've decided if I'm going to participate in combat scenes from either side of the table, I want something with more decision making than what target I pick, though how much I care depends on how much combat you're going to see; in an urban fantasy game the relatively schematic take in Liminal might be okay, but its not what I'd expect out of a superhero game or most fantasy adventure).
 

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Helpful NPC Thom

Adventurer
4e looked at this, but didn't hit the nail quite on the head. One needs to ask - is an exploration turn structure needed - and question of that ilk. If the future for PnP RPG must be about what we as small groups of humans can do, then we need better rules in 6e. And those are not combat rules - 5e combat rules are strong - 6e needs to offer more in the exploration and social pillars. Parts of play that 5e shied away from, and then returned to rather reluctantly, when what was needed was vigorous and sincere design attention from the start.
I think that the best option for this is creating rules additions that guide play. Moldvay B/X is astounding in this regard with how it lays out the procedural elements of D&D. It creates strong gameplay enhanced by clear and concise rules. Now, the rules for dungeon exploration are not appropriate for every aspect of D&D play--if the players are entering a tavern, it would not be appropriate to test for wandering monsters or make reaction rolls (unless it's a rather unusual tavern)--but the framework provides sufficient structure for the "meat" of the game.

I think creating a handful of subsystems that utilize different styles of rolls is the best option in this regard. Apocalypse World and its derivates all utilize 2d6 + stat and a ternary resolution system, but the exact implementation of those rolls varies based on circumstance. A player who attacks another character (typically described as Seize By Force) has very different effects and outcomes of the roll compared to a player who is surveying a tense scene (typically described as Reading a Sitch).

For the simplest distillation of those mechanic, view the basics of Burning Wheel: the GM tells the players exactly what happens on a failed dice roll, and then the players roll the dice. A failure changes based on circumstance. In the scope of D&D, a failed check to pick a lock could have any of the following happen:

  • You can't pick this lock. Sorry, you'll have to find another way through.
  • You pick the lock, but you trigger a trap on it.
  • You pick the lock, but the bandits on the other side of the door are ready and waiting for you.
  • You pick the lock, but the sorcerer moves one step closer to completing his evil ritual.

Some might find a lack of defined mechanics frustrating, but in a story-first game, the freedom for GMs to improvise and modify consequences based on circumstance is invaluable.
 
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clearstream

(He, Him)
I think that the best option for this is creating rules additions that guide play. Moldvay B/X is astounding in this regard with how it lays out the procedural elements of D&D. It creates strong gameplay enhanced by clear and concise rules. Now, the rules for dungeon exploration are not appropriate for every aspect of D&D play--if the players are entering a tavern, it would not be appropriate to test for wandering monsters or make reaction rolls (unless it's a rather unusual tavern)--but the framework provides sufficient structure for the "meat" of the game.
I'm assaying a mod for 5e - inspired by B/X and WWN - that offers four levels of resolution. Combat (about a minute), scenes (about ten minutes), marches (about eight hours), and workweeks (about five days).
  • Combat is for the most granular action.
  • Scenes are for skill use - such as, a party of four want to clamber around a pit - that can be resolved without much granular die rolling. Even one and done, at times.
  • Marches are for rests, watches, marches (of course!) and random encounters - things that are checked or arc over a day or night.
  • Workweeks are for downtime activities - building strongholds, training, making potions, that sort of thing (we're using XGE).
This structure is looking promising so far. If there were a combat while clambering around a pit, then we can revert to granular checks and the tempot, space and action rules for combat. If not, then we can just clamber around the pit: that might be one roll, or none, depending (is it sheer, have the party any relevant gear, and so on). Connecting rests with random encounters works neatly (I use longer duration rests, explained in another thread). Workweeks I have yet to playtest in earnest - we've only had one case where it was relevant.

I think creating a handful of subsystems that utilize different styles of rolls is the best option in this regard. Apocalypse World and its derivates all utilize 2d6 + stat and a ternary resolution system, but the exact implementation of those rolls varies based on circumstance. A player who attacks another character (typically described as Seize By Force) has very different effects and outcomes of the roll compared to a player who is surveying a tense scene (typically described as Reading a Sitch).
Exactly. I enjoy more when the mechanic for hitting things feels different from the mechanic for chatting to them, and where there is a little more room for the character to be more or less capable (so that they can be differently capable). I'm not dissing other approaches - the AW structure is wonderfully economic - but here I am designing to my own taste. That said, I feel I have gained a lot from better appreciating those other systems; what they are doing, and how they guide as to use.

For the simplest distillation of those mechanic, view the basics of Burning Wheel: the GM tells the players exactly what happens on a failed dice roll, and then the players roll the dice. A failure changes based on circumstance. In the scope of D&D, a failed check to pick a lock could have any of the following happen:
  • You can't pick this lock. Sorry, you'll have to find another way through.
  • You pick the lock, but you trigger a trap on it.
  • You pick the lock, but the bandits on the other side of the door are ready and waiting for you.
  • You pick the lock, but the sorcerer moves one step closer to completing his evil ritual.
Some might find a lack of defined mechanics frustrating, but in a story-first game, the freedom for GMs to improvise and modify consequences based on circumstance is invaluable.
Again, on point. I felt a strong need to expand the expressive range of the d20. In combat we have 1 auto-fails, 20 auto-hits and crits. I've expanded that 1 botches an ability check if it would fail, but that is not much more expressive. I am trying to think of ways to improve on it. The AW 2d6 neatly offers full success, success with drawback, fail and drawback, and in some cases super-success. The downside of the 2d6 is that it is sensitive to modifiers so you can only really work with +/- 5 or less. Helpfully, the first +/-1 matters more than the fifth, although the fifth could yield degenerate cases. Gain in expressive range of outcomes has come at a small cost in expressive range of inputs. I'm not fond of the count successes approach used by some other systems, because it is not at all intuitive to understand the true odds (I mean, BW goes ahead and puts in a reference table just to try and ameliorate that!) On the other hand, I kind of like L5R...

Anyway, unmodified, the AW 2d6 is offering ~16% of full success, ~42% success with drawback, and ~42% fail and drawback. Better than a coin flip of some sort of success. 5% at either end on d20 is a long way from that! I feel this little piece of engineering, if finessed, could be very helpful. It could have important consequences for the way the system can be played. Any thoughts?
 

Numidius

Adventurer
In my OSE game, I add a Dfudge to D20 rolls, to indicate magnitude of criticals/botches, if maneuvers (deeds ala DCCRPG) are performed well in combat, casting spells, complications, drawbacks, boons and the like
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
In my OSE game, I add a Dfudge to D20 rolls, to indicate magnitude of criticals/botches, if maneuvers (deeds ala DCCRPG) are performed well in combat, casting spells, complications, drawbacks, boons and the like
I did consider rolling a die on the side. Do you mean that you take say a '+' to mean that a 1 or 20 is more severe? That would still be only 10% of the range. What's key I suspect, is to find a way to differentiate the meanings of broader parts of the range. Suggested in the DMG is that failing by <6 has no downside, and failing by >5 has a downside. And that is used in some published adventures. It's just fiddly to implement. With AW the result is a 5 and I know what that means. With the DMG method the result is a 5 and I have no idea what that means until I also recall the DC and subtract 5 from it. Locking the nuance to the result is far easier to apply than varying it by the DC!

Looking then at the result on the die. One might picture (for ability checks, not attack rolls) -
  • die shows 5 or less, a failed check comes with a drawback
  • die shows 15 or less, a successful check comes with a drawback, a failed check is just a fail (the fail is the drawback)
  • die shows 19 or less, any success is just a success
  • die shows 20, any success is an enhanced success
In this picture, there are no guaranteed successes or failures on ability checks (accords with PHB RAW), but when you do succeed or fail, that might come with nuance. A feature that might bug people is possibly a disconnect between character skill (its modifiers to the check) and the outcome. Say I am an expert tier 2 rogue, with +4 PB and +3 from my ability score. So I have +11. If the DC is 17 I can fail only on 5 or less. So if I fail at all, 100% of the time that comes with a drawback. Possibly that will drive dissonance. OTOH it makes Reliable Talent more worthwhile!

EDIT Another method I thought of, drawing inspiration from Bushido, is that if die shows an odd number then the outcome includes a drawback. That naturally scales with character skill. In the case above, our rogue has a 15% chance of fail with drawback, 10% chance of straight fail, 35% chance of success with drawback, and 40% chance of straight success.
 
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Numidius

Adventurer
I take a + (plus) like positive/better/bonus/success; a - (minus) like negative/worse/malus/fail, self evident for the table in every case.

I also allow, actually foster, Players to come up with stuff/manouvers/boons even after rolling it, even passing it to another Pc
 


clearstream

(He, Him)
I think it's going to be a pretty open question whether (say) Seize by Force feels the same as Go Aggro or Seduce/Manipulate.
Well, the AW method is to write a separate mechanic for each move. So they should feel different, because the mechanics are different. What I believe isn't an open question is that Seize by Force should not normally feel the same as Seduce/Manipulate. Do you see what I mean?

What's important to me is that they are varied. And for me the most substantial variation is that embodied in the mechanics. There are a lot of ways to engineer that. One way that I feel can be effective is to vary the stochastic element of the mechanic - not move by move, but class of move by class of move.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I take a + (plus) like positive/better/bonus/success; a - (minus) like negative/worse/malus/fail, self evident for the table in every case.

I also allow, actually foster, Players to come up with stuff/manouvers/boons even after rolling it, even passing it to another Pc
I think we can get half of that by checking the parity of the d20. Say odds = negative. Dfudge has +/nothing/- so what we would increase negative from 1/3rd to 1/2, but this is still much lower than the 4/5ths used in PbtA games.

Say we also make it that a 20 is an enhanced success. To capture back some of the boons concept. Potentially, one die becomes decently expressive.
 

Again, on point. I felt a strong need to expand the expressive range of the d20. In combat we have 1 auto-fails, 20 auto-hits and crits. I've expanded that 1 botches an ability check if it would fail, but that is not much more expressive. I am trying to think of ways to improve on it. The AW 2d6 neatly offers full success, success with drawback, fail and drawback, and in some cases super-success. The downside of the 2d6 is that it is sensitive to modifiers so you can only really work with +/- 5 or less. Helpfully, the first +/-1 matters more than the fifth, although the fifth could yield degenerate cases. Gain in expressive range of outcomes has come at a small cost in expressive range of inputs. I'm not fond of the count successes approach used by some other systems, because it is not at all intuitive to understand the true odds (I mean, BW goes ahead and puts in a reference table just to try and ameliorate that!) On the other hand, I kind of like L5R...

Anyway, unmodified, the AW 2d6 is offering ~16% of full success, ~42% success with drawback, and ~42% fail and drawback. Better than a coin flip of some sort of success. 5% at either end on d20 is a long way from that! I feel this little piece of engineering, if finessed, could be very helpful. It could have important consequences for the way the system can be played. Any thoughts?
As a mathematician I would just point out that there's no reason you cannot emulate the behavior of 2d6 with a d20, it is just probabilities. obviously you could say 17+ total success, 8+ success with complication, otherwise complication without success. That emulates the PbtA 2d6 throw pretty accurately. Heck, you have more freedom, you can tweak those numbers in 5% increments, which is a lot easier. While bonuses/penalties will indeed 'stack' in a linear vs non-linear fashion, the difference is not HUGE and IMHO it is easier to deal with. You also have to consider (dis)advantage, which already hands you a non-linear mechanism to use. I like PbtA games, they have their virtues. I'm not totally in love with 2d6, nor necessarily the dice pool mechanics of FitD or similar engines. They can be convenient, but they tend to break down in unusual cases due to non-linear behavior. d20 offers BOTH types of options. Heck, you can always stack more than 2 dice on a 'take the best' mechanism if you want REALLY non-linear.
 

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