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Straight Talk from Gene Weigel

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GENEWEIGEL

Explorer
Hey there,

I just wanted to say thanks for the honest opinions on that "little" matter!

Pheww!

Was it getting hot in here or was it just me?

;)

Anyway I just want to set the record straight on the remark that I'm some kind of mouth piece. Well, I act at the behest of no one but myself.

Let me just explain.

I love this D&D game, as a lot of you know by now as I'm often humorously cantankerous and rambunctious with a lot of you about certain flaws in the game.

But let's just put all that aside for a minute and look at the big picture.

This game has been around since the early 1970's almost 30 years by now and it went through the ringer as we all know about halfway down the road.

Blah, blah, blah, what's the point?

Now that "ringer" squeezed everything, not just the gusto out of the work but the expectations of the writers and the fans as well.

And it has affected all of us even those who came in after the fact.

There is an inherent hostility in regards to the writers of what is essentially the very same game that you hold in your hands today.

Whether it's Gary Gygax, Robert Kuntz or even Dave Arneson. The reaction is kick first and ask questions later.

When 3e came around and I asked eagerly to see some original Greyhawk ideas come back (By Gary Gygax or Rob Kuntz), I was treated like a leper.

A shocking reminder that the 2e years still perpetuate even without "TSR's Boss of Terror".

So... get to the point! Get to the point, "fanboy"!

The point is that the stuff that those who walked through the "Greenway Valley" (See Village of Hommlet) with me want to see has been denied and denied and denied.

So that is why I say what I say without prompting to set things straight on some people's opinions that are often misplaced or of just plain rotten origin.

Mr Controversy indeed.

Truth is I don't want to see anymore controversy.

Or even the best laid plans for an entire generation go astray because someone needs to cause controversy.

Nobody more than I fears the return of a one horse town where the original fans are treated like the diseased.

I act alone and I ask for the same treatment if I go down the crooked path as well.

Peace and may Zuggtmoy go with you!

Sorry. ;)
 

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baseballfury

First Post
I don't see this hostility you are talking about. If anything, 3E has caused the rehabilitation of Gygax's reputation. Companies like Troll Lord, Necro and even Mongoose courted the "old guard." Hell, Necro is making big bucks imitating the style of the classic AD&D material. OK, so the City of Brass thing didn't work out, but they did publish that Maze series and Troll Lord is supposed to do that Germanic book of Rob's. Now maybe you have a beef with how WotC treated Greyhawk, but you shouldn't tar everyone with that same brush.
 

Darrin Drader

First Post
GENEWEIGEL said:

Whether it's Gary Gygax, Robert Kuntz or even Dave Arneson. The reaction is kick first and ask questions later.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I (and many people I know) are much more likely to purchase new RPG supplements if they are written by one of these three, if for no other reason than just to see what they're up to these days.

Yes, the City of Brass thread was unfortunate, and I'm not going to revisit it. Starting controversy is fine as long as you stick around and add to the conversation. In that thread you showed up, gave us a topic and then deserted (much like a troll).

Anyhow, I hope Rob's new company does well, and I hope that the products you guys put out are good. I won't hold any controversy against any of you where it comes to my spending habits, provided that the material I buy is done well.
 

GENEWEIGEL

Explorer
I'm glad everyone said what they said.

It gets it out in the open.

Let's you know who to watch out for!

;) Just kidding!

There's nothing wrong with folks knowing how things go down in my opinion anyway.

The word got out on the street and now people know right?

Now don't start throwing the word Troll around. I don't subscribe to that club. ;)
 

Melan

First Post
I don't think the "Kick the old guard!" mentality is so widespread. So some people don't like the EGG, or RJK, or Dave Arneson (although I don't see how one could not like Dave). There are lots of people who don't like Monte Cook or Skrein or Mona or blahblahblahblahetcetcetc.

And there are fanboys.

The conspiracy? There is no conspiracy. Sometimes things don't work out. GH didn't work out. Despite, and not because of Mona. And Greenwood doesn't have anything to do with this, so you can finally lay it off. [I don't think you will, BTW. :D ]

The "hostility" you see is a tempest in a teapot. A few disgruntled fans, like you, bashing other disgruntled fans. Do you think your snide remarks about Greenwood are better than somebody's snide remarks about Gygax? Think again!

...

Meanwhile, in another galaxy, massive quantities of people are buying RPG materials because they like them, or not buying because they don't. And they don't give a flying ----- about Internet messageboards, anyway. Of my six-seven players, I am the only one who bothers to read them. Some food for thought.
 

GENEWEIGEL

Explorer
I don't see how Greenwood enters into this.

Wait thanks Melan for the great association!

;)

Everyone that I know is quite tired of the Elminster world. And the Elminster style. And the Elminster this and the Elminster that.

What's it been? 25 years of Elminster products?

Compare that to a little more than ten years of original products.

Sure you can say from his mindset that it was just a chance to show the world his world but it wasn't his world was it?

It was an amalgam world of all the TSR things that didn't involve Gygax's Worlds (Elminster's forgotten realms, desert of desolation, the redo at the last minute oriental adventures world KaraTur, Jeff Grubb's simplified Toril home campaign.) and therefore didn't involve the current AD&D fans at that time.

But he held onto the public notion that it was still his world for quite some time rather than the malicious orchestrations of the TSR president.

The Ed Greenwood company mentality is the virtual destroyer of all things that were good about original AD&D.

The faster we forget about "his" work or rather the rogues gallery of traitors to the D&D dream's work the better.

So how does this hallowed opinion of mine fit into the scheme of things?

I'm sick and tired of things get the "shaft" by anti-fans is all.

Now some may say that certain folks aren't anti-fans well let me ask you something, how are the current maneuvers going to help the fans?

They're not. They're all self serving and haven't considered anything except the promotion of one person's vanity.

When that "one person" is caught in a lie everyone goes to blame the person wronged who exposed the lie for poor taste and unprofessionalism due to their need to justify their previous associations with that "one person".

Now he can say he's justified by these supporters til the cows come home but quite frankly this is almost as bad as bad business gets.

Nobody has been waiting for that version.

He did it to undermine the original version and that is what the "Forgotten Realms technique" was all about and we are seeing it happen now all over again.

Bury the original to promote yourself.
 

Nightfall

Sage of the Scarred Lands
And here comes the diatribe...

At any rate, as one of the unfortunate participants in that Flame of City thing...I will say that I honestly could care less if Greyhawk was brought back or not. I have my own world, that's fine by me. If some disgruntled people want Greyhawk back the way it was, I'd say "Do it yourselves!" There's very little stopping you.
 

GENEWEIGEL

Explorer
Well one can also say, "Here we go with the "my world's best" diatribes!"


Look, "Greyhawk" isn't about draping names over things like they did with Living Greyhawk. Anyone can do that.

Its a lost style of adventure.
 

Psion

Adventurer
As the saying goes "You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time..."

Y'know what. I want Planescape back just like you want "old school" greyhawk back. But in either case, it's not to likely to happen. But you can't always get what you want, eh?

But life goes on. I press on without official support and without feigning the need to get approval from internet forum posters I don't even know. I recommend you do the same.
 

MEG Hal

First Post
GENEWEIGEL said:

I'm sick and tired of things get the "shaft" by anti-fans is all.

Now some may say that certain folks aren't anti-fans well let me ask you something, how are the current maneuvers going to help the fans?

They're not. They're all self serving and haven't considered anything except the promotion of one person's vanity.

When that "one person" is caught in a lie everyone goes to blame the person wronged who exposed the lie for poor taste and unprofessionalism due to their need to justify their previous associations with that "one person".

Now he can say he's justified by these supporters til the cows come home but quite frankly this is almost as bad as bad business gets.

Nobody has been waiting for that version.

He did it to undermine the original version and that is what the "Forgotten Realms technique" was all about and we are seeing it happen now all over again.

Bury the original to promote yourself.
Gene---this is not straight talk it is a soapbox. I do not care if you have issues with publishers but this one sided rant is getting a little boring. And for the record I read the other thread and went to your links on the PP site. I also have no issues with Pied Piper or RJK personally, but this is a bit over the top and you are not doing any good for PP by stating this stuff and having their banner in your sig.

I understand the fact of feeling upset, you have said your piece, but stop slamming and start promoting PP's CoB. What is soooooo cool about it that we must have it!

Ok, go for it!

My opinion-not a MEG post!
 

Nightfall

Sage of the Scarred Lands
GENEWEIGEL said:
Well one can also say, "Here we go with the "my world's best" diatribes!"
Uhm I don't believe I SAID that or even implied that. I said "I have my world and that's fine by me." That doesn't mean I'm denigrating Greyhawk. That just means I'm happy with what I got. You on the hand just denigrated both FR and in passing, my enjoyment for Scarred Lands. I was also saying if you WANT that "lost style" of adventure, DO it yourself. There's the d20 system, all lined up for use. If you want that kind of world so bad, make it.
 

Nightfall

Sage of the Scarred Lands
Psion said:
As the saying goes "You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time..."

Y'know what. I want Planescape back just like you want "old school" greyhawk back. But in either case, it's not to likely to happen. But you can't always get what you want, eh?

But life goes on. I press on without official support and without feigning the need to get approval from internet forum posters I don't even know. I recommend you do the same.
Not to mention Psion, you are the kind of guy to LISTEN and not overreact when someone say "I don't care that much for Old School Greyhawk."

btw Hal, I don't know if there's anything yet about Pied Piper Industries...but I'll take ANYTHING you and Doug make over the stuff RJK made, considering the stuff I sloughed through in Dark Druids. But then you already knew that. :)
 

GENEWEIGEL

Explorer
Psion said:
As the saying goes "You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time..."

Y'know what. I want Planescape back just like you want "old school" greyhawk back. But in either case, it's not to likely to happen. But you can't always get what you want, eh?

But life goes on. I press on without official support and without feigning the need to get approval from internet forum posters I don't even know. I recommend you do the same.
I always knew you were one of those "guvnors".

Everybody knows Planescape died because it made the afterlife into an ordinary mundane existence all wrapped up with very unD&D like style and dialogue.

How long could that possibly last?

It's borderline downright LARP-ish!

(Shudder)

;)

Psion, I need your approval now! ;)
 

GENEWEIGEL

Explorer
THG Hal said:

I understand the fact of feeling upset, you have said your piece, but stop slamming and start promoting PP's CoB. What is soooooo cool about it that we must have it!

Ok, go for it!

My opinion-not a MEG post!
Alright, I'm done with the soapbox.

Actually, I have no clue what City of Brass is like.

Except for this which everybody has probably seen already:

To the City of Brass

;)

I'm working on a sourcebook and I can't say jack squat about it until it's finished.

But I've put quite a lot into it and you better buy it Psion or I'm coming to your house!

;) Just kidding!
 

GENEWEIGEL said:


I always knew you were one of those "guvnors".

Everybody knows Planescape died because it made the afterlife into an ordinary mundane existence all wrapped up with very unD&D like style and dialogue.

How long could that possibly last?

It's borderline downright LARP-ish!

(Shudder)

;)

Psion, I need your approval now! ;)
I am begining to suspect you may be an "Arcanoloth".

Everyone knows Planescape produced soo many sourcebooks because they lifted the veil on the afterlife and created so many unique and challenging new environments to explore.

It lasted long enough to get $400+ from me.

Planescape is borderline Epic!

( CoB isn't extra-planar is IT? )


:eek:

Psion, I'm truly a BIG fan! :D
 

Grazzt

Demon Lord
GENEWEIGEL said:

Everyone that I know is quite tired of the Elminster world. And the Elminster style. And the Elminster this and the Elminster that.

What's it been? 25 years of Elminster products?

Compare that to a little more than ten years of original products.

Nothing personal, but you must not know too many people then. As much as I dislike the Realms, it still outsells everything else combined....even after "25 years."

EDIT: And this gets moved to General as it really doesn't belong in the Publishers' Forum.
 
Last edited:

MEG Hal

First Post
GENEWEIGEL said:


Alright, I'm done with the soapbox.

Actually, I have no clue what City of Brass is like.

Except for this which everybody has probably seen already:

To the City of Brass

;)

Gene
No flames here just curious... you have no idea what PP CoB is about and pointed me to the RPGA version of CoB not PP's how do you have all of this insight into what happened with the CoB issues? I am confused I was under the impression you worked for PP or was a part owner or someone with vested interest?

Help me understand please.
Thanks
 

Lucifer

First Post
GENEWEIGEL said:


I'm sick and tired of things get the "shaft" by anti-fans is all.

What about the Kuntz fans that play 3e? His message boards are very anti-3e and you can see it in his posts. Aren't his fans, the ones that play 3e (yes there are some that do), getting the "shaft" by Rob?

And speaking of that, isn't PPP a d20 company? If so, how do you plan to produce quality products for a system you don't even like. (And yes, I have seen your posts on Dragonsfoot regarding 3e as well.)


Now some may say that certain folks aren't anti-fans well let me ask you something, how are the current maneuvers going to help the fans?

They're not. They're all self serving and haven't considered anything except the promotion of one person's vanity.

When that "one person" is caught in a lie everyone goes to blame the person wronged who exposed the lie for poor taste and unprofessionalism due to their need to justify their previous associations with that "one person".

But you are not here again to stir up controversy right? Yet- you make veiled references to "that topic" again. C'mon now, let's be honest and realistic here.
 


Darrin Drader

First Post
Why must we feel the need to bash campaign worlds at all?

Classic Greyhawk is one model of a campaign world. It is valid, it was tried, tested, had many followers, and is generally considered a good thing.

The same can be said for the Forgotten Realms. The whole thing can't be summed up as Elminster's world. Just because Ed speaks of his world through Elminster, that doesn't mean that he is the only character there. Personally I like the Forgotten Realms because it has so much going on, so many places to visit, and it continues to evolve. Some of the things they made for Forgotten Realms were really quite good while admittedly, some of it wasn't. Fine.

The Scarred lands is a darn good setting too. It's a darker setting for sure, but what I really like about it is that it takes the familliar into new and different directions.

Personally the only things I didn't like about Planescape (and I know I'm going to get lynched for saying this) was the art and the odd dialiect.

Personally, I applaud the way WotC has handled all their campaign worlds in 3rd edition. Greyhawk is setting neutral, so it isn't like it received 0 support like it did through most of 2nd edition. Forgotten Realms has had only a handfull of products as opposed to every other book being released as Forgotten Realms.

I guess the bottom line is that if X setting gets people to play and enjoy the game, how is that a bad thing?
 

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