Level Up (A5E) Strength vs Dexterity imbalance cannot be solved without addressing the Melee vs Ranged Imbalance.

[CapnZapp]

If the classes are being fixed in order to make them more interesting and consistent, then there's no reason to assume the same can't be done for feats.

Hey, the only reason I'm having this conversation is because you said "Your argument would be stronger if you ignored the contribution of feats" which I took as you wanting to dismiss feats as a small uninteresting optional part of the game.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Hey, the only reason I'm having this conversation is because you said "Your argument would be stronger if you ignored the contribution of feats" which I took as you wanting to dismiss feats as a small uninteresting optional part of the game.

Feats aren't small or uninteresting, but they are optional and poorly balanced, and (more importantly) not a reflection on the core mechanics.

Dexterity being better than Strength is not something that relies on any specific feat for it to be true; and if it did, then all it would mean is that the feat was broken. And honestly, I was expecting the whole feat system to be overhauled for this project anyway.

 

[Haldrik]

@FrogReaver

The whole point of FrogReavers post was saying that NOT having Dex bonus to damage makes archery too weak. Obviously the comparison will be done showing 2 attacks of 1d8+0 with a longbow (with a 10% accuracy boost thanks to the fighting style) compared to 1 attack of 2d10 with firebolt.

If archery is "too weak", that seems like a good thing, so as to preference melee combat, which is more exciting for storytelling.

But.

The archer can use a Strength bow, to add the Strength bonus to damage. This requires an investment in Strength, and favors Fighter and melee and Strength.

Meanwhile, the Wizard cannot add Strength to the Firebolt cantrip.

In this sense, removing the Dex bonus from damage looks like a good idea.

 

[FrogReaver]

@FrogReaver


If archery is "too weak", that seems like a good thing, so as to preference melee combat, which is more exciting for storytelling.

But.

The archer can use a Strength bow, to add the Strength bonus to damage. This requires an investment in Strength, and favors Fighter and melee and Strength.

Meanwhile, the Wizard cannot add Strength to the Firebolt cantrip.

In this sense, removing the Dex bonus from damage looks like a good idea.

Too weak is always a bad thing. Being just right is a good thing. Adding strength to bow attacks instead of dex has some potential.

not sure it pans out though. 1. Full casters with a bonus to cantrip damage would still likely be doing the same damage at that point. 2. Rangers would be much better off than fighters as archers since hunters Mark would be a huge ranged damage buff at that point. 3. You still have eb and agonizing blast to worry about.

In short i think there’s a ton of reasons to not lower ranged archer damage. I’d find an alternative balancing mechanism I think.

 

[Undrave]

5e screwed that up by making everything it's own unique thing in too many cases instead of saying that $CoolAbility counts as a ranged attack or whatever. It further screwed that with "you triggered my trap card">"hahaha! your trap card triggers my trap card" cascades. It used to be pretty simple with a few exeptions like grapple that were just badly designed.There is a big difference than what 4e did & 5e's near complete removal of both a well defined structure for AoOs as well as removal of the hooks(see below) that a system of tactical AoOs from abilities & such.
View attachment 125137

My eyes glaze over looking at this...

 

[FrogReaver]

My eyes glaze over looking at this...

You aren’t the only one.

 

[tetrasodium]

Too weak is always a bad thing. Being just right is a good thing. Adding strength to bow attacks instead of dex has some potential.

not sure it pans out though. 1. Full casters with a bonus to cantrip damage would still likely be doing the same damage at that point. 2. Rangers would be much better off than fighters as archers since hunters Mark would be a huge ranged damage buff at that point. 3. You still have eb and agonizing blast to worry about.

In short i think there’s a ton of reasons to not lower ranged damage. I’d find an alternative balancing mechanism I think.

No it's not always a bad thing. A ranged build focusing on using ranged weaponsfrom a distance doesn't need to be so close & can put less focus on hp/ac giving them more room to focus on other stuff. There is also the relative value to dex and whatever

My nissan versa is weaker than a charger at the track & weaker than a box truck for cargo capacity & weaker than a moped for gas mileage before even getting int cost but I prefer the balance of strengths & weaknesses to the others & the price point was what I wanted.

 

[Undrave]

You aren’t the only one.

I feel like half of these, if not more, would be constantly forgotten at the table... and OA on 'attack (unarmed)' and 'stand up from prone' just call for ridiculous situations.

 

[FrogReaver]

I feel like alotnof the proposed solutions here are going to cause more problems than they solve.

nothing is an island. full casters cantrips need considered alongside ranged and melee weapons. Almost no one is doing that.

 

[Haldrik]

Too weak is always a bad thing. Being just right is a good thing. Adding strength to bow attacks instead of dex has some potential.

not sure it pans out though. 1. Full casters with a bonus to cantrip damage would still likely be doing the same damage at that point. 2. Rangers would be much better off than fighters as archers since hunters Mark would be a huge ranged damage buff at that point. 3. You still have eb and agonizing blast to worry about.

In short i think there’s a ton of reasons to not lower ranged archer damage. I’d find an alternative balancing mechanism I think.

Tentatively, removing Dex damage seems to address a deep problem, helping to balance Strength versus Dexterity. It prevents Dexterity from making Strength irrelevant.

Meanwhile, comparing Fighter bow damage with Ranger and mage cantrips is a shallower concern, that can be looked at separately.