Struggling with spell lists!

[SKid4]

I like the concept. I have questions.

1. If I understand this correctly, a secret provides you with a list of signature spells of increasing power. Is that correct? Do they have to increase in power (e.g., powerful ray and weak area effect or always weak ray and powerful area effect)? Can they be swapped out? How does swapping out work?

2. Wouldn’t this first require associating every spell list/path with all appropriate secrets? Is there a master list of secrets?

3. Does a secret provide the character with anything other than a spell list/path?

 

[Morrus]

No, that's not it. Sorry - that doc is a quick explanatory draft, but could be much clearer!

Secrets are obtained via traditions, maybe races, sometimes treasure. Think of them as valuable items you discover, but they're intellectual items, not physical.

You can spend XP to learn a spell list if you know its secrets. Anybody can do this if they know the secrets.

The spells in a spell list you can cast are limited by your MAG attribute.

You or your GM or a fan or a third party publisher can create new spell lists, but your character still has to know the secrets and spend XP to learn them.

 

[SKid4]

My understanding is that the spells in the above PDF were created using the EoM spell lists. If these spells take 2 actions to cast, they’re equivalent to signature spells. That makes the PDF “spell paths” lists of signature spells of increasing MP cost. This is the first part of question 1.

The second part of question 1: Why do they have to increase in power? A spell path doesn’t have to have a theme, and the GM can allow you to make your own spell path. What stops you from creating a spell path with just cantrips? Are all spell paths restricted to one spell per MP cost? Does it require two spell paths to get multiple variations that have the same MP cost? For example, adding damage dice to an evoke spell every time appears to be a valid spell path (0 - 1d, 1 - 2d, 2 - 3d, etc.)—this is also a clear example of a narrowly focused spell path.

Question 2 was in reference to page 61’s list of example spell paths and their associated secrets. This gets compounded for every third party and custom spell path that gets created. For example, does the secret of death have to be associated with every spell based on the Death element? Even after publication?

 

[Morrus]

My understanding is that the spells in the above PDF were created using the EoM spell lists. If these spells take 2 actions to cast, they’re equivalent to signature spells. That makes the PDF “spell paths” lists of signature spells of increasing MP cost. This is the first part of question 1.

What's the question? Whether they take 2 actions? I haven't decided yet, not having been able to playtest this yet. I'll try both and see what works!

The second part of question 1: Why do they have to increase in power? A spell path doesn’t have to have a theme, and the GM can allow you to make your own spell path. What stops you from creating a spell path with just cantrips?

The concept in my mind is increasing mastery of something. So you progress along the path, you're able to do bigger things. Someone with MAG 14 fire has a much greater mastery of fire than someone with MAG 5 fire.

You could certainly have multiple fire-related spellpaths.

Are all spell paths restricted to one spell per MP cost?

Not at all. You can have gaps in it. They can be short or long. They might start at 0 or at 12 or anything else. The examples are all just kind simple 0-10 examples.

Does it require two spell paths to get multiple variations that have the same MP cost? For example, adding damage dice to an evoke spell every time appears to be a valid spell path (0 - 1d, 1 - 2d, 2 - 3d, etc.)—this is also a clear example of a narrowly focused spell path.

Take a look at the healing spellpath example. That's pretty much just adding extra dice each time, though I threw in a few extra things to spice it up a bit.

Question 2 was in reference to page 61’s list of example spell paths and their associated secrets. This gets compounded for every third party and custom spell path that gets created. For example, does the secret of death have to be associated with every spell based on the Death element? Even after publication?

I wold be inclined to say yes, but third parties can design whatever they want, of course. Like with most things, you'd end up with some well designed stuff and some badly designed stuff. I do like the idea of thousands of spellpaths existing, and if you have access to, say, a handful secrets, that give you a hundred or so that you can choose to learn (although you have to select them carefully - your LOGIC attribute limits how many you can learn).

And then you could have an actual quest to discover the long-lost secret of dragons, or something.

The difficulty I predict is that while a wider or narrower spellpath isn't more powerful (it's just more varied), a wider or narrower secret is more powerful. The secret of nature is more powerful than the secret of plants or animals if all spellpaths which include the plants or animals secrets also include the nature secret. I have to think more about that; why would anybody ever discover the secret of plants if they can discover the secret of nature instead.

That all said, who says all secrets are equal? Is the secret of bees equal to the secret of life equal to the secret of Cthulhu? Maybe some secrets are rarer, more valuable, harder to obtain, not offered by traditions.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think the Spell Path spells should be mechanically similar to signature spells, to include casting times. In my game the decision to cast or move tends to come up pretty often...and in a good way.

Regarding the rules for building Spell Paths, I think that they should have progression with a maximum of 2 spells at a given MP limit. There does need to be guidelines that make sense. For example, the draft document has the Fire Spell Path {page 5} as requiring the secret of Fire or Nature.. but I don't see how the nature element was used in any of the spells.

Regarding Signature Spells, assuming the plan is to allow an either-or/mix of Spell Paths and Spell lists, there need to be clarifications like:
- you can learn a combined number of Spell Paths and Signature spells up to your LOG attribute
- When a tradition grants you a spell path you may elect to pick a spell list that includes actions or elements from the secrets that you know

Also, in order to retain the flexibility for the player who sticks to Spell Paths I think we need more 'meta-magic exploits' that can be added to the casting of a Spell Path/Signature Spell. I am thinking of things like:
- Reshape Spell: You can chose on casting a spell to form it into a different shape; spherical, cone, line, etc
- Extended Range Evoke: You can reduce the damage of an Evoke spell by 1 Die in order to extend the range of the spell by 30'
- Forceful Spell: Gain +2D6 to your Magic check when casting the spell, however all effects of the spell are cut in half
- Override Creators Flair: Some Spell Paths are hard-coded with the original casters look and feel. Without this exploit any casting of Justin Cooper's Shadow Hand will result in the visual aspect of a delicate, long fingered hand that has three gaudy rings, trails wisps of shadow-stuff rimmed in flickering firelight..and silently drums the air when left stationary.
With this exploit the caster can shape the hand as per the 'cosmetic enhancement'. Note, many general spell paths do not have the original casters theme applied.


I am ready to build a couple paths! After all, I have an Evil{?} Dragon to finish building!

 

[Morrus]

You're right in that that fire path doesn't actually use nature.

Partly, I want the possible secrets to be infinite - far beyond the list provided by EoM.

(As a clarification - you mention traditions granting spell lists; under this proposal they don't offer spell lists, they offer secrets.)

I'd definitely love to see some fan-created spell paths! That's the quickest way to test this!

 

[Morrus]

Second draft, mainly focusing on clarification.

 

[jrowland]

Much better Morrus. I like the art too! Couple of little things:

the "Traditions" section seems misplaced...you go secrets, spellpath, traditions, then the text goes right back into spellpath. I think the tradition section should be first (or at least all three should be ordinal in some way)

The junction bit sounds good, but I would add (my addition in italics):

"At a junction, a magic-user may continue along a different spellpath if they know a secret of the new spellpath, almost as though switching rails at the junction, without spending XP to learn the “new” spellpath."

and

"However, once she starts along the new spellpath from the point of the junction, she
cannot change her mind. She can switch back if there is another junction later in the path"

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Fan Created Spell Paths

Here are my first stabs at Spell Paths.

I added some Junctions too! The Path of the Scout is pretty straight-forward Move and Scry spells while the Path of the Filcher kinda cherry picks some additional spell lists.

0 - FarSight
Choose a location that is within 800' and within sight, then close your eyes to be able to see that location as if you were standing at the chosen location. Your vision is limited to 20' and creatures within your view may notice that they are being watched if they pass a INT check against your Magic roll.

1- Translate
Choose one language, for one minute you can understand, read, and write that language
2 - Walking Farsight
As Farsight, however you can 'walk' your perspective at a rate of 10' per round
3 - Finder
Touching the ground and concentrate {Magic Check 13 or higher} on a specific object, type of object, or element. You gain the knowledge of the general distance and direction to that specific object or to the nearest significant quantity of the object or elements. If your Magic Check was 23 or higher, you learn the exact distance, direction, and approximate size of the objects or element. If the objects are within 60 you are aware of how many there are and can concentrate {one action} to learn the specific location of each.

4 - Ghost Hands
As Walking Farsight, in addition you can manipulate objects within your field of view as if you had a strength of 12. This includes opening doors, moving papers around, shoving people, and the like. Delicate activity, such as picking locks or tying shoelaces requires passing an INT check 12 or higher and you may have a penalty to any related skill check.

5 - Tactile Tracking
Touch an object and concentrate {Magic Check 13 or higher}, you can select a time period to review as a time-lapsed visual. The longer the time period, the more gaps exist in the time-lapsed review. Take a -1 Die penalty to your check if the time period is over a month ago, -2 die if over a year, and -3 die if over a century ago.

5 Invisibility
You become entirely invisible for 10 minutes. Even when creatures know exactly where you are, you still gain the benefit of full cover. Invisibility grants you a +5 die bonus to checks made to hide (failing the check doesn't mean that you have been seen, just that you've made a noise or given away your location some other way).

6 - Freedom of Movement
Effects that reduce or stop your movement do not affect you for 1 minute. This includes paralytic poisons, Compel effects, Move Death effects, Drain Time effects, grappled, held, restrained, grabbed, pinned, or elemental resistance such as moving underwater.

7 - Expeditious Retreat
You gain +18 to your base Speed for 10 minutes

8 - Speedy Spider
You gain Spider-Climb, invisibility, and +6 to your Speed for 10 minutes

9 - Fins and Gills
You gain the ability to breathe water, a Swim speed equal to your base Speed, and gain +2 on Swim related checks for 1 hour

10 - Overwatch
As Farsight, however your visual range is 80' and the spell lasts up to 10 minutes. Generally this spell is used to gain a birds eye view over an area by selecting a location 40 or 50' above the ground

0 - FarSight
Choose a location that is within 800' and within sight, then close your eyes to be able to see that location as if you were standing at the chosen location. Your vision is limited to 20' and creatures within your view may notice that they are being watched if they pass a INT check against your Magic roll.

1 - Telekinetic Theft
As a move action you can move an object within 30' that weighs less than 10 pounds, or manipulate an Tiny objects from a distance. Delicate activity, such as picking locks or tying shoelaces requires passing an INT check 12 or higher and you may have a penalty to any related skill check. This effect lasts for 10 minutes.

2 - Guard Dog Dreams
This charm causes animals to fall asleep for 10 minutes that fail a Will check against your Magic roll. They sleep through noises but are woken by injury or shaking. Each round they recheck Will versus your Magic roll to see if they wake up. The spell lasts for 10 minutes and affects a 10' radius from a point within 30' of you when you cast it.

3 - Slip
As a move action you can teleport up to 30' once in the next 10 minutes.

4 - Spider Climb
You gain Spider Climb for 10 minutes

5 Invisibility
You become entirely invisible for 10 minutes. Even when creatures know exactly where you are, you still gain the benefit of full cover. Invisibility grants you a +5 die bonus to checks made to hide (failing the check doesn't mean that you have been seen, just that you've made a noise or given away your location some other way).

6 - Purge Poison
All poison within 10' of you is neutralized. Creatures within the area of affect that have natural poisons may avoid having their internal poison stores neutralized if they pass a Strenuous END check (DC 19).

7 - Thieves Compass
Concentrate {Magic Check 13 or higher} on a specific object, type of object, or element. You gain the knowledge of the general distance and direction to that specific object or to the nearest significant quantity of the object or elements. If your Magic Check was 23 or higher, you learn the exact distance, direction, and approximate size of the objects or element. If the objects are within 60 you are aware of how many there are and can concentrate {one action} to learn the specific location of each. This effect lasts for one hour and you can concentrate {one action} to gain updated knowledge of the object.

8 - Improved Invisibility
As Invisibility, and your scent is masked. You do not leave a scent trail.

9 - Guards Slumber
This charm causes creatures to fall into a deep slumber for 10 minutes if they fail a Will check against your Magic Roll. If they pass their check they only fall asleep and can be woken with shaking. Affected creatures do not get to make additional WIL checks to wake up, and slumbering creatures will continue to sleep normally after the spell expires. The spell lasts for 10 minutes and affects a 10' radius from a point within 30' of you when you cast it.

10 - Ghost Walk
You can walk through solid material as if it were air for the next 10 minutes. You can choose to climb or descend at a 45 degree angle while walking through solid materials.

12 - Blink
You can spend an action to teleport up to 30' as many times as you want in the next 10 minutes

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I am working on my spell casting dragon, so some of these spell paths are for him. Please critique!

Reminder: creatures in metal armor are vulnerable to lightning and take an additional dice of damage
0 - Breath of Fog
Exhale a small bank of fog {10' deep} that obscures vision or provides concealment to creatures in the edge of the fog bank {-2 to hit}
1 - Spark
1D6 Lighting damage to one target within 30. The target is also blinded for one round.

2- Blowhard
one target within 30' takes 1D6 Wind damage and must pass a Challenging END check {13} or be knocked backward 5'. If they roll a 9 or less they are knocked back an additional 5' and end up prone. Creatures with SOAK may negate being knocked back based on their size; Large creatures, Medium creatures with a SOAK of 5, and Small creatures with a SOAK of 10.

3- Call Storm
Shape the local weather

4 - Oncoming Storm
Cloak yourself in silence for 10 minutes, your movement makes no sound

5 - Syncopating Spark
One target within 100' takes 1D6 lightning damage each round for one minute. Once dead, the corpse twitches in a strange dance as the electrical current continues to spike through the muscles.

6- Lightning Bolt
One target within 30' takes 6D6 lightning damage and is blinded for one round.

7- Call Rain
Shape the local weather in a half-mile radius in ways that are typical for the season and terrain. This weather builds up over 10 minutes and then fades as normal weather would

8- Wind Wall
Select 8 contiguous squares to fill with the power of the wind. Creatures that enter or remain in the wall take 1D6 damage from the shrieking wind and must pass a Challenging END check {13} or be knocked back 5'. If they roll less than 9 they are knocked back an additional 5' and end up prone. Creatures with SOAK may negate being knocked back based on their size; Large creatures with a SOAK of 10, Medium creatures with a SOAK of 15, and Small creatures with a SOAK of 20.

9- Suffocating Aura
You are surrounded by a fog could that steals the breath from all but you. The fog cloud extends 30 feet and moves with you. Enemies that enter the area start a countdown pool based on their END attribute and they pass out when the countdown pool expires. Any physical action they take removes 1 die from the pool. If they leave the aura, the pool refreshes at a rate of equal to their END dice. This aura lasts for one minute.

10- Lighting Storm
Exhale a cone of lightning that strikes everything within 60'. Targets take 2D6 Lightning damage. The ground and metal objects within the area are heated to a dull red and creatures in contact or within 5' of the objects must pass an END check of 13 or take 1 point of damage each turn for one minute. SOAK of 10 protects you from the heat of objects within 5' and SOAK of 15 protects you from all the heat damage.

{edit: you may notice that the Evoke environmental effects are not just 'Stun'. This is due to my belief that stun in 'OLD' is overpowered, so para-elementals can use the environmental effects of nearby elements. Hence the use of blind and bake in this spell path}

0 - Command
You can speak one word command and the creature you are touching is compelled to do your bidding. Each round the creature may attempt a Will Check vs your Magic to negate the effect.

1 - Fear-Stricken
Target a 10' radius within 30'. Creatures who enter or remain in the area must pass a Will check vs your Magic or become Shaken {-1 die on attack rolls, damage rolls, and attribute checks}. Each creature gets a WILL check against your Magic at the start of their turn to negate the effect. Creatures who make the Will save do not need to check again even if they re-enter the area. This effect lasts for one minute.

2- Confound
Target a 10' radius within 30'. Creatures who enter or remain in the area must pass a Will check vs your Magic or become Confused {at the start of each round the target rolls 1D6 to determine their actions: 1 - wander away using two actions, 2 or 3 - look around and do nothing, 4 or 5 - attack the nearest creature in a fit of rage, 6 - momentarily gain control of your senses and act normally.}. Each creature gets a WILL check against your Magic at the start of their turn to negate the effect. Creatures who make the Will save do not need to check again even if they re-enter the area. This effect lasts for one minute.

3- Stop, or I shall say Stop again!
Target a 10' radius within 100'. Creatures within the area that can understand your language are compelled to do your bidding. Each round the creature may attempt a Will Check vs your Magic to negate the effect.

4 - Hold Person
Target one Person within 30' to bind them in place for one minute.

5 - Command Word - Sleep
Creatures within a 30' cone to fall into a deep slumber for 1 minute if they fail a Will check against your Magic Roll. If they pass their check they only fall asleep and can be woken with light shaking. Affected creatures may make new Will checks each round to wake. Slumbering creatures will continue to sleep normally after the spell expires.

6- Hag's Guarding Eye
Select an entryway to set the Hag's Eye on for the day. When the first creature passes through the entryway a Sense-Link is established. Up to {your LOG attribute} other creatures that pass through the entryway within the next 10 minutes are also targeted by the Sense-Link. You can communicate simple concepts and emotions, as well as view through the affected creatures senses during the next 10 minutes. Each creature gets a WILL check against you Magic each round to close the link.

7 - Hero of the Hour
You gain +2 dice on all Attack rolls, Damage Rolls, and Attribute checks for one hour. Additionally you are immune to Fear-based effects.

8 - Voice from On High
Target up to {your LOG attribute} creatures within a 20' radius from up to 500' away to telepathically communicate. The targets may make a Will save each round to close the telepathic link.

9 - Imprison
Target a 10' radius within 100'. People within the area are bound in place for one minute. In addition, none of the creatures attacks, spells, or abilities can cross the boundary of the area.

10 - Panicked Mob
Target up to {your LOG attribute} creatures within a 20' radius within 30'. Creatures who fail their WILL vs your Magic become Panicked {-2D penalty to attribute checks, drop held items and may only take move actions that end farther away from you or any other threat it encounters. If cornered, the creature will cower and take no actions}. Those who pass the check are Shaken and must flee from you or any other threat it encounters. If cornered they can fight. If the Will check passed by 5 or more, the creature is unaffected.

11 - Mental Archeologist
Select up to {your LOG attribute} creatures within 100' that are within 10' of each other. If they fail their WILL check vs your magic, you can concentrate as an action to search the creatures minds for specific information. This effect lasts 1 minute and the creatures do not get additional WIL checks to resist nor do they know you are interrogating them.