"Stuck" playing 4e (i.e. unwilling converts)

[Mercule]

This doesn't directly answer your question, as I willingly went over to 4e and all. But, I was just wondering, how dead-set is your friend on being specifically a "Wizard".

I think he's as likely to play a rogue or fighter as a wizard. It's just that the wizard will be the elephant in the corner in that case. Someday, he'll want to play a wizard, and he's the sort where that potential would probably color his enjoyment of the game. I can't really blame him -- this is likely to be more of a permanent move to a new edition, unless the system generally sinks for everyone, rather than just another option among many games.

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I've been reading them and am looking forward to more.

 

[dm4hire]

One thought I've had for possible home rules is to throw out the rules concerning spellbooks and make them more like previous spellbooks. In addition to this every spell a wizard gets can be swapped out each day to the maximum they can do. So a wizard can swap out at wills, encounters, and dailies. Have the character start off normally but as he/she finds spells for their spellbook they can start swapping out. Might even rule that wizards can cast anything arcane as well to expand their list, but again they have to find the spell. To keep them from just copying from other players, unless they're playing a wizard also, I'd rule that other classes that have spellbooks use a different inscribe method which makes them uncopiable and warlocks and such that are innate casters don't have spellbooks to copy from. That leaves finding or buying the spells as before. As for rituals some of the casting times seem too long in my opinion to the point they are in effective unless done during rest or down time. Any ritual that might have a combat use I'd cut down to at least one round, maybe two rounds tops for casting time. Oh, and make combat casting of rituals a wizard only ability.

Hope that helps.

 

[Shadeydm]

My group also changed editions to 4E. I find that despite having components which I dislike good company and a sense of humor goes a long way towards an enjoyable evening regardless of edition.

I would agreee with the notion that the wizard in the new edition has fewer options, but I have seen one performs it's new role quite well (I think perhaps this is important to keep in mind that the system expectation for a wizard has changed significantly). IME the new paladin is pretty good, the new warlock seems more limited than it's previous incarnation. By far the most fun I have had has been playing a Swordmage.

Regarding growing on me I do not believe daily martial powers will ever grow on me. This does not stop me from having fun though. I think in a way everyone at the table recognizes the limitations of the new edition. Even the DM made a good 4E joke when the party was weaponless last week and ran into a couple orcs. The rogue tried to kick one of the orcs in the shin. When he hit the orc it went down due to being a minion. The best part was when the DM described it as the orc collapsing to ground clutching its knee while its lifeblood slowly drained away. Funny stuff, fun stuff!

 

[Remathilis]

The wizard, though, had the most concern. He's the most experienced player at the table (I've got more experience, but I tend to GM) and is somewhat geared for fiddling with numbers, but without the collector's desire for shelves of books. He's also a big fan of arcanists/wizards. He was extremely frustrated with the way the 4e wizard played and felt. It felt extremely de-powered to him, and not having any rules for rituals (KotS rules, only) really killed the utility aspect of wizards.

He likes Vancian magic (at least, modded with the UA spell-points) and I can't fault his preference. I've got something of the opposite opinion, though, so I can't really see it from his perspective.

Well there's your problem!

4e is not a "fiddlers" system. Its quite the opposite. 3.5 made character generation almost a sub-game into itself (cough CharOp cough). while 4e tries to have meaningful choices, your choices ARE a lot more limited than 3.5's modular system.

Specifically, he seems like the player who likes to tinker down to base element (IE squeezing every last useful spell out of his Spell Points). 4e is not the system for him.

 

[Rel]

I've run only one session of 4e for my regular gaming group so far (a sort of "preview session" for what my upcoming campaign will be like) and they all seemed to be like, "Works for me." So I don't feel like anybody is being dragged into it unwillingly.

However I can say that, at first, I wasn't a 4e fan. When all the information was gradually leaking out about the game before release, my general feeling was, "It's not setting my world on fire but I'll not pass judgement until it is in my hands."

Then I got it in my hands. Well the PHB anyway. Unimpressive. I browsed through it (I avoid using the word "read" hear because I don't think it's possible for me to "read" the PHB) and it seemed fairly crappy. The organization was unfamiliar. The way the classes are structured with their powers was very differnent. I even posted privately in the moderator forum that it felt "Not like D&D". Kind of despised using that trite bit of phrase but it was my impression.

However I'm a curious sort and I couldn't stand the idea of having wasted money on a book I wouldn't use without even trying it so I made up a couple characters and tried the game out with my wife and daughter. Turned out that it felt VERY like D&D. I mean the way the combats went felt so strikingly similar to 3.x that I found the small differences tripping me up. The powers worked much more seamlessly than I'd have guessed and the players found them very intuitive. The roleplaying aspects were, of course, system independant and fun as always. It changed my whole perspective.

After that I started digging deeper into the system and seeing some elements that I really liked (Rituals - Love em'!). I also started to see some things that I knew I didn't like and needed to change, but felt that these changes were all relatively small and easy. The end result is a system, albeit one that I've houseruled a bit, that I'm very excited about running.

I will say that I'm not convinced that 4e has the "replayability" that 3.x did. But who cares? It'll keep us busy as a gaming group for the next couple years I'm fairly sure and that's about all I can ask from any system.

 

[Wycen]

Maybe I can help.

Both of the 3.5 campaigns I was in died under circumstances that angered me and probably colored my perception of 4E. The first ended during the last battle with the last bad guy, in the last session of our last 3.5 campaign. That was how the DM billed it because he was going 4E (he owns a game store so he rightly would prefer to support the current game system). It was a near Total Party Kill because of 2 players being _____ ____, blowing everyone up (fill in your favorite curse words). 1 character survived and thus we ended the game, with a hand wave as far as I was concerned. I nearly got up and left the table but I didn't.

My other campaign was Savage Tide and it ended because one of the hosts wasn't having fun anymore and we'd already had to hand wave the bad results when he went berserk and randomly stabbed some NPCs. He wasn't having fun because his 6 INT fighter wasn't any good for coming up with strategy.

Now, I'm also someone who likes the versatility of wizards and clerics. Thus, when I started looking at my options in 4E, I was not impressed.

In my thinking, the 'at will' magic missile spell has essentially become the wizard's crossbow (I first read that comparison here at ENWorld).

Perhaps a house rule that you could spontaneously convert another use of a power into a Healing Word or something would make me like clerics better.

I understand the want to balance classes so everyone has fun, or really nobody is left feeling useless. Unfortunately, I really just see everyone as a -warrior- with powers that do different things and have different names.

Rituals don't impress me (Rope Trick is 12th level?!).

And I don't like 30 years of canon being thrown out.

However, for the time being, if I want to game with my friends, I have to play 4E. So, what do I do?

Well, it is now a far more social event for me. I show up to hang out with friends, share a beer, and swap memories. Don't ask me to take notes, because if I do, they might be mistaken with notes I didn't erase from 2 sessions ago.

I also think that 4E could be useful for casual gamers who don't learn important things like what their spells do and want to run complex characters like a 3E druid. I use this specifically because in our Savage Tide game the other host (they were husband and wife) was playing DnD for the first time and she was a huge time sink, continually forgetting what her spells did, forgetting about her animal companion and other stuff. She was the star of the party (druids in STAP rock), but her character was more like a communal entity we all shared responsibility for.

Not sure if I have anything else useful, but I need to do more Christmas shopping so I'll check the thread again later.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

If you find the Right Answer, I'll pay you for it.

I'm in two groups. One was a blessedly easy switch - everyone was ready and willing to try something new.

The other...the other group has some hold-outs. Er, actually, we're down to just one hold-out, as the other two guys have jumped onboard the 4e train. But that last guy - he's a great gamer, a great friend, a consummate RPer...and he loves wizards. Loves 'em. 3e wizards.

He also loves spending copious amounts of time "building" his character to 20th level, may iterations of which never end up seeing the light of day. He feels limited, constrained, and underpowered in 4e (wherein he's trying to play a wizard).

I will give him this - he's doing his best. He has a good attitude, he shows up on time, he participates, etc. All of what you would expect from an adult, avid gamer.

But I can tell 4e isn't doing it for him. And that kills me. I've been gaming with this guy since '86, and it's no fun knowing that there's a buddy around the table who'd rather be playing a different system.

Will he change? I don't know. He has put a lot of stock in the forthcoming Arcane Power book and claims (perhaps justifiably) it should have been the first splat to hit the market. I suspect that will be a watershed event for him, and us, for better or worse.

Ultimately, I think he grins and bears it because gaming, and gaming with his friends, transcends the system - even if that system is not the one he would have chosen.

And I respect him for that. I don't know if I could do it half as well.

WP

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The way I see it, part of the simplification of the wizard is to bring the power down into a reasonable range, but part of it is to make wizard's simpler to play. The latter affects not only players who don't care for Vancian magic, but also GMs being able to whip out a high level wizard quickly. Since reduced GM prep is one of the big strengths of 4E, I don't think you throw that away without some thought. However, don't ask me how much is wizard nerf and how much is ease of play, because I have no idea.

I do think that it is not terribly unbalancing to allow the wizard to put all of his powers into a spellbook (same as daily and utilities) now, and swap them out each day--perhaps with a greater cost (getting them into the spell book, no variations known at start on utility and daily, relatively hard to find new powers, whatever makes sense). You just don't want this to be the default.

So add another feat, "Versatile Wizard," and make sure that the wizard can pick that feat up, along with Expanded Spellbook, reasonably early. Versatile wizards can learn any power, and can swap out each day. Adjust the cost of doing this, as the campaign progresses, to keep it fair. Throw in another feat for researching rituals, and come up with a few more. Heck, skip the "Versatile Wizard" feat, and make up some (cheap component cost) ritiuals that let the wizard swap out powers a lot. (That seems like a fair trade to me. Some wizards alternate between two choices in their dailies and utilities. Others use a ritual to swap out any power, but can swap any power they know.)

Now this guy can fiddle to his heart's content, and the GM can still whip out a high level wizard in minutes, and another player can play his wizard like a 3E sorcerer and be happy.

 

[Dragonblade]

If you find the Right Answer, I'll pay you for it.

I'm in two groups. One was a blessedly easy switch - everyone was ready and willing to try something new.

The other...the other group has some hold-outs. Er, actually, we're down to just one hold-out, as the other two guys have jumped onboard the 4e train. But that last guy - he's a great gamer, a great friend, a consummate RPer...and he loves wizards. Loves 'em. 3e wizards.

He also loves spending copious amounts of time "building" his character to 20th level, may iterations of which never end up seeing the light of day. He feels limited, constrained, and underpowered in 4e (wherein he's trying to play a wizard).

I will give him this - he's doing his best. He has a good attitude, he shows up on time, he participates, etc. All of what you would expect from an adult, avid gamer.

But I can tell 4e isn't doing it for him. And that kills me. I've been gaming with this guy since '86, and it's no fun knowing that there's a buddy around the table who'd rather be playing a different system.

Will he change? I don't know. He has put a lot of stock in the forthcoming Arcane Power book and claims (perhaps justifiably) it should have been the first splat to hit the market. I suspect that will be a watershed event for him, and us, for better or worse.

Ultimately, I think he grins and bears it because gaming, and gaming with his friends, transcends the system - even if that system is not the one he would have chosen.

And I respect him for that. I don't know if I could do it half as well.

WP

In my experience there are two types of people who like to play arcane casters in prior editions of D&D. Those who like casters because they have a plethora of options, a golf bag of spells for every occasion. And those who like wizards because they are the class with the most power, the class with the power to bend reality to their will, and potentially alter the course of a game in dramatic fashion in a way that no other class can match.

The first kind of wizard player is easily satisfied by adopting the house rules I wrote about earlier. Their problem with the 4e wizard stems from a perceived lack of flexibility and options. They went from a list of spells that easily took up 1/3 of the PHB (if not more) to one that takes up only 16 pages. Giving them more flexibility is the key to happiness.

The other type of player is just not going to be happy in 4e, and thats because arcane casters were just flat out broken in prior editions of the game. Wizards are now on par with other classes in the overall power department. In my opinion that is a good thing, but from the perspective of someone used to being able to whip out Disjunction, Fly, Teleport, Improved Invisibility, and so on, its going to be a severe cut back in power.

A well-played arcane caster in 3e is a one-man party. Who needs a Rogue when you have Knock? Need a scout? Improved Invisibility to the rescue! Need to get somewhere? Pick from Spider-climb, Dimension Door, Teleport, or Fly! Need to devastate the battlefield in a way no other class can touch? Well, there is Disintigrate, Fireball, Fire Brand, Meteor Swarm, etc. Worried about getting grappled? Ghostform or Mestil's Acid Sheath! Buffed enemies, or ongoing spell effects giving you trouble? Disjunction for the win! And finally, if you need to do something I didn't cover, there is always Wish!

The 3e caster was flat out broken and needed to be fixed. This is an indisputable fact.

If the 3e wizard fan is mature enough to recognize the 4e changes were made to be make the game more playable across more levels and to give other classes a share of the spotlight, then they should be fine after a while. But if they are not mature enough to handle that change, then they will never be happy with 4e. And frankly, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Sorry, if that sounded harsh.

 

[Treebore]

The 3e caster was flat out broken and needed to be fixed. This is an indisputable fact.

If the 3e wizard fan is mature enough to recognize the 4e changes were made to be make the game more playable across more levels and to give other classes a share of the spotlight, then they should be fine after a while. But if they are not mature enough to handle that change, then they will never be happy with 4e. And frankly, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Sorry, if that sounded harsh.

Well, here is a new one for you. I don't like 4e. It doesn't have elements that I like my games to have in them. I played it for several months and the only reason I liked it is because of who I was playing it with. The rules themselves bored me.

My "maturity" had nothing to do with it, 4E simply does not excite me, and other games do. So I play them.