Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I have several positive things to say about 5e. In this thread, in fact. I also try to avoid insulting my fellow posters, even if I disagree with them.
D&D General Stuff 5E Did Right
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Hey, that's an insult to vegetarians. We would never do that!
Oh, is that your point?
(Now vegans, on the other hand....
I am allowed to say this because I am a once-upon-a-time vegan.)
Zardnaar
Legend
Not really it was really only a thing in BECMI.
. That line ended 1894 became official 1996.
kigmatzomat
Legend
I actually like 5e at tier 4 play. You kids have no idea how good you have it. We had to play up hill, both ways, in the snow and we liked it because we didn't know any better.
I ran ad&d 2e up to 20ish (class-specific xp charts, yay) and 3e up to 23rd. 2e was a slog imo, with casters totally dominating. 3e let you use PrCs to balance classes more and Bo9S provided a nice burst of spice to high level melees, but it was still very caster heavy.
5e did a lot to slow down casters. People talk about how powerful 5e casters are but earlier edition casters were soooo much more powerful. I had to deal with casters who had multiple Miracle or Limited Wish spells prepared. (Limited Wish in 3e was called "instant scribe scroll" by our group)
A 20th level 3e caster had 4-6x 9th level spells/day, and similar 6th, 7th and 8th. In 2e, a mage got 2x 9th and up to 4x 6th level. Meanwhile 5e characters get ONE of each 8th and 9th spell slots and no more than 2x 6th & 7th.
And yes, 5e casters don't have to pick spells for their slots, but neither did 3e sorcerers. And they knew far more spells than 5e casters. A 20th level 3e sorcerer knew 34 spells (5x 1-2nd, 4x 3rd-5th, 3x 6th-9th). 5e casters top out at 25, sorcerers stop at 15.
A 3e sorcerer knew twice as many spells as their 5e counterpart, had more than twice as many spell slots and the spells hit harder. Let us not forget that in prior editions, spells auto-scaled. 10th+ level caster always threw a 10d6 fireball using a 3rd level slot. A sorcerer 10+ could throw a half dozen 10d6 3rd level fireballs. (I'm going to assume the hitpoint inflation of 5e is offset by changes in saving throws, but I haven't done the math)
Concentration was also not a thing: if the spell got cast, it functioned for the full duration and the caster could fire off a second spell. Or a third. Or a fourth.
So in summary 5e does tier 4 casters better.
I ran ad&d 2e up to 20ish (class-specific xp charts, yay) and 3e up to 23rd. 2e was a slog imo, with casters totally dominating. 3e let you use PrCs to balance classes more and Bo9S provided a nice burst of spice to high level melees, but it was still very caster heavy.
5e did a lot to slow down casters. People talk about how powerful 5e casters are but earlier edition casters were soooo much more powerful. I had to deal with casters who had multiple Miracle or Limited Wish spells prepared. (Limited Wish in 3e was called "instant scribe scroll" by our group)
A 20th level 3e caster had 4-6x 9th level spells/day, and similar 6th, 7th and 8th. In 2e, a mage got 2x 9th and up to 4x 6th level. Meanwhile 5e characters get ONE of each 8th and 9th spell slots and no more than 2x 6th & 7th.
And yes, 5e casters don't have to pick spells for their slots, but neither did 3e sorcerers. And they knew far more spells than 5e casters. A 20th level 3e sorcerer knew 34 spells (5x 1-2nd, 4x 3rd-5th, 3x 6th-9th). 5e casters top out at 25, sorcerers stop at 15.
A 3e sorcerer knew twice as many spells as their 5e counterpart, had more than twice as many spell slots and the spells hit harder. Let us not forget that in prior editions, spells auto-scaled. 10th+ level caster always threw a 10d6 fireball using a 3rd level slot. A sorcerer 10+ could throw a half dozen 10d6 3rd level fireballs. (I'm going to assume the hitpoint inflation of 5e is offset by changes in saving throws, but I haven't done the math)
Concentration was also not a thing: if the spell got cast, it functioned for the full duration and the caster could fire off a second spell. Or a third. Or a fourth.
So in summary 5e does tier 4 casters better.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Strongholds and followers were part of the game through the end of 2e.
Zardnaar
Legend
I don't recall that much in my 2E core books.
BECMI covered it in way more detail. 1E a little bit eg Fighter and hireling tables.
kigmatzomat
Legend
3e had followers via the Leadership feat, which was influenced by having a stronghold.
I had at least 2 players take Leadership, so there were dozens and dozens of followers aside from the hirelings and farmers that came to their now-secured territory. Oh, and two cohorts.
I had at least 2 players take Leadership, so there were dozens and dozens of followers aside from the hirelings and farmers that came to their now-secured territory. Oh, and two cohorts.
Zardnaar
Legend
Still not stronghold based and it was kinda opt in.
2E kinda stripped it out. Its soneting I noticed back in the day with references to ear machine iirc in the RC or 1E DMG vs 2E dmg (we had no 1E phb).
So what's stopping you from using those rules? Or just use Matt Collville's version?
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Ok, so just 4e forward then. That just proves my point.
