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Stuff I want (From you 3pp People)

If they have a cool idea for a new setting, I'd be interested, but I'd rather not have that new setting have a bunch of powers/classes etc.

I didn't buy Scarred Lands for the crunch.

Best option, I'd like the person to show me how the EXISTING material can be fit into their world.

But.... ok I'm a little confused.

GSL restriction: you cannot redefine existing material either in fluff or in the way it works, right?

Customer restriction: you cannot make new crunch, yes?

So ... How can you do a scarred lands type setting? If you do not want new races, there go the hornsaw elves. But you cannot say elves are nuts. Would the GSL permit what the scarred lands did with gnomes (on a different, later defined continent)? Can I do that with dragonborn?

So I guess my question would be: If I cannot redefine existing material and I cannot make new material to attempt to achieve the desired setting's flavor ... what is left for a setting? I mean other than a fantasy heartbreaker?
 
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I found Goodman's Book of Rituals to be the only third party supplement that's really been useful for 4e. (Adventures like Burning Sky and tools like Paizo's maps and Fantasy Grounds are also quite but are something of different categories.)

I'm not sure how many pure ritual books I would buy, but I would definitely pick up a terrain book, particularly if it mixed terrain powers with some half decent maps that employed the elements. I would be equally interested in a skill challenge book if it provided 30-40 skill challenges like PCat's chase mechanics and Mearls' infiltration challenge along with a lot of suggestions about how to customize the challenge.

I also think there is a market for more fluff heavy monsters. GMs can always use new critters to fight (particularly ones their players have never seen), and WotC's monster presentation tends to lack the sort of material that helps inspire GMs to write adventures that use the monsters. I would love a book of devils that included creative nefarious schemes that the various types of devils could be caught doing.

Another underserved area is the world building implications of rituals and magic items. The level of communication magic (to pick one example) has a major impact on the game world. I would find it very useful to have someone produce a book that contains a number of communications rituals and then discusses which rituals to use (and/or how to re-level them) to achieve different levels of fantasy / civilization. Healing rituals, scrying rituals, transportation/teleportation/warding rituals, economic production rituals all have similar implications.

...well, those are my thoughts.

-KS
 

Based on what kenmarable has posted, it would seem that any attempt at a comprehensive 4E setting would be incomplete and likely not very well received. If a 3PP is in it for business reasons, that would not be a tempting prospect. I suppose a sort of generic setting that hinted and winked at some 4E connection might sell to some but not many I suspect.
Actually, I disagree. Looking at classes, races, and monsters - there's already almost as much released for 3pp use by WotC as there was in 3.x. Before the release of the psionic, Epic, and Divine rules into the 3.5 SRD, I'd say the 4e SRD is pretty comparable. Sure, I'd love more of course. And I *really* hope the psionic makes it's way in, but there aren't major SRD limits on campaign settings. Biggest issues that I see are:

a) Core classes you can't address, but I don't see addressing all of the core PC classes as essential to campaign settings. It's nice dressing to discuss how wardens and invokers and swordmages might appear in your setting, but even addressing *any* of the classes directly isn't necessary for campaign material

b) Magic items. Unfortunately, the core books had a VERY sparse selection of magic items since most of them were presented in the Adventurer's Vault (I even consider it the 4th core book) and weren't added to the SRD. But again, I don't see needing to address specific WotC owned magic items as an essential part of any campaign setting.

What is currently available in the SRD is definitely enough to create many campaign settings. In fact, I have two I'm considering cleaning up and releasing over the next few years, and even those don't directly address everything already in the SRD.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to argue that WotC shouldn't add more to the SRD (I'm on the uninformed opinion that they should release everything, but that's just me). I'd love it if they released much more. However, I certainly don't think they haven't released enough that many publishers couldn't make many settings.

After all, 3.x saw a large number of great settings, yet the only material opened up by WotC after the initial core rules was the niche stuff most publishers ignored anyway.
 

But.... ok I'm a little confused.

GSL restriction: you cannot redefine existing material either in fluff or in the way it works, right?

Customer restriction: you cannot make new crunch, yes?

So ... How can you do a scarred lands type setting? If you do not want new races, there go the hornsaw elves. But you cannot say elves are nuts. Would the GSL permit what the scarred lands did with gnomes (on a different, later defined continent)? Can I do that with dragonborn?

So I guess my question would be: If I cannot redefine existing material and I cannot make new material to attempt to achieve the desired setting's flavor ... what is left for a setting? I mean other than a fantasy heartbreaker?

Like this:

Hornsaw Elves.

Crunch (The crunch is exactly the same as a normal elf)

Flavor: Hornsaw goodness.

I don't care about renaming stuff I just would rather not have the wheel (elf crunch) reinvented everytime I get a new setting.

Just give me a setting that works with the wheel I have. You can call it the Prestone racing wheel, and paint it purple if you want, but make sure it's still round and fits on my wheel hub.
 

Actually, I disagree.


I'm not sure you do as much as you think you do.


Looking at classes, races, and monsters - there's already almost as much released for 3pp use by WotC as there was in 3.x. Before the release of the psionic, Epic, and Divine rules into the 3.5 SRD, I'd say the 4e SRD is pretty comparable. Sure, I'd love more of course. And I *really* hope the psionic makes it's way in, but there aren't major SRD limits on campaign settings.


Well, I'm not going to get into a comparision since that way lies edition wars, IMO, but I will say that the drop off of SRD support during the 3.XE era was a huge disappointment and probably led to much of the glut since a more narrow arena of options led to many products all about the same things plus many products that diverged from the growth of D&D (in that time) rather than being easily integrated. Looking at the 4E SRD as its own animal, clearly there are things lacking both in content and in timeliness, based on your own previous description of how things currently stand. In that we agree, at least.


Biggest issues that I see are:

a) Core classes you can't address, but I don't see addressing all of the core PC classes as essential to campaign settings. It's nice dressing to discuss how wardens and invokers and swordmages might appear in your setting, but even addressing *any* of the classes directly isn't necessary for campaign material


I have no doubt the audience becomes increasingly less likely to shell out for something with each thing that is omitted, as people realize that their own particular favorites aren't inlcuded as integral to a setting.


b) Magic items. Unfortunately, the core books had a VERY sparse selection of magic items since most of them were presented in the Adventurer's Vault (I even consider it the 4th core book) and weren't added to the SRD. But again, I don't see needing to address specific WotC owned magic items as an essential part of any campaign setting.


I wouldn't doubt here, either, that the less of this integrated to a campaign setting, the fewer people who would be interested in purchasing it.


What is currently available in the SRD is definitely enough to create many campaign settings. In fact, I have two I'm considering cleaning up and releasing over the next few years, and even those don't directly address everything already in the SRD.


If they even exist, it would seem that there must be a lot of settings in the same unreleased holding pattern. How many 3PP settings, that aren't simply generic crossovers, have been produced? Have any been produced strictly for 4E?


Don't get me wrong, I don't want to argue that WotC shouldn't add more to the SRD (I'm on the uninformed opinion that they should release everything, but that's just me). I'd love it if they released much more. However, I certainly don't think they haven't released enough that many publishers couldn't make many settings.


I think the proof is in the pudding. I think if there was a demand for real settings and if 3PPs felt that they could put out settings under the GSL with the state of the 4E SRD, we'd already see a lot of them. I simply think the combination of a lack of demand and a lack of support through the GSL and 4E SRD has reaped what it has sown (whether this is by function or default depends, I suppose, on whether or not you believe WotC knows or cares what has resulted from their licensing shift).


After all, 3.x saw a large number of great settings, yet the only material opened up by WotC after the initial core rules was the niche stuff most publishers ignored anyway.


Given the differences between the OGL and the GSL there obviously isn't a direct 3.X/4E comparison so I am thinking it is fruitless to follow this line of thinking.


Getting back to your original statements, though, regarding 4E, it seems clear that not much 3PP stuff is actually being produced, not much seems to be in demand, and that there must be reasons. As far as our agreement or disagreement, we seem to agree there is a obvious deficiency in support but you seem to believe it is not one of the casues of the dificiency in 3PP production. So, I have to ask, how would you explain the dificiency in 3PP production?
 

Like this:

Hornsaw Elves.

Crunch (The crunch is exactly the same as a normal elf)

Flavor: Hornsaw goodness.

I don't care about renaming stuff I just would rather not have the wheel (elf crunch) reinvented everytime I get a new setting.

Just give me a setting that works with the wheel I have. You can call it the Prestone racing wheel, and paint it purple if you want, but make sure it's still round and fits on my wheel hub.


All of that already exists, it just happens to be for other systems. Just pick those up in the discount bins, redact the crunch, and you have everything you want.
 

All of that already exists, it just happens to be for other systems. Just pick those up in the discount bins, redact the crunch, and you have everything you want.

Thats great, and yep I use my old stuff all the time.

I would also like new stuff as well. (New ideas are cool!)

Also with changes like dragonborn, tieflings, eladrin, new paragon paths and such I'd like someone to take the time and put that stuff to good use.

If you're not the person wanting to do that? Great no hard feelings, I'm just going to stick you in the same category I have jmucchiello in right now. (Someone that doesn't want, and won't be getting my money.)

If you are someone who wants to publish this stuff then you can be in the other category. :D

I'm not really looking to debate this stuff. I'm just a customer indicating what I want.
 

Thats great, and yep I use my old stuff all the time.

I would also like new stuff as well. (New ideas are cool!)

Also with changes like dragonborn, tieflings, eladrin, new paragon paths and such I'd like someone to take the time and put that stuff to good use.

If you're not the person wanting to do that? Great no hard feelings, I'm just going to stick you in the same category I have jmucchiello in right now. (Someone that doesn't want, and won't be getting my money.)

If you are someone who wants to publish this stuff then you can be in the other category. :D

I'm not really looking to debate this stuff. I'm just a customer indicating what I want.


More power(s) to you but I don't think it is going to happen much, if at all. You might have some luck getting stuff that is new to you elsewhere, even if it is older, and making the adjustments yourself. For instance, find a setting where there are some races that don't exist in D&D and repurpose them as the "dragonborn, tieflings, eladrin" of that setting then sprinkle in some "new paragon paths" that are being published individually (are these even out there?) and you've got just what you want right now without trying to get someone to work on something that almost no one seems willing to buy, besides you, or course. I mean, I suppose there are a handful of potential buyers but with each thing that is discovered about an expansive product that doesn't suit the needs of those potential buyers, they bail out and fewer are left. I think that you have to go right past the eStores (where I assume you couldn't find this stuff) and ignore your FLGS (where I assume this also doesn't exist) and post on an RPG board with the second biggest congregation of D&D players to even bring up your need is an indication of the likelihood of it even being produced. I just don't think it is going to happen but I am both willing to explore why, in case that can be changed, and to explore alternatives with you and for whoever else might have similar interests.
 

Shrug- sure I'm willing to admit the setting is a long shot, and as such not really quite as important to me...

The other ones really were the more important things to me.
 

Into the Woods

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