Stuff you don't have a problem with, but will never use

T

I happen to disagree. It depends what you call "a rapier". While epeens and side-swords aren't very useful except in duels, the swords used by Rodeleros, were quite dangerous in the battlefield. "Rapier" is kind of an ephemerous word, so it depends what exactly you mean by rapier.

By rapier, I mean the thing that most HEMA practitioners would classify as a "rapier", rather than a "Cut&thrust" or sidesword.

Since I mentioned Silver, I'm referrring specifically to the long ones first introduced by the Italians; long, of limited use on the cut, and of quite different use than the "shortsword" that Silver preferred.

I can also throw in the later developments, as the rapier got shorter and lighter. It's a fine sidearm, but was never a particularly good military weapon. It's too specialized, and it became more specialized the more it evolved.
 

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The D&D monk has not typically been seen as a purely mundane class, though. Whether you fluff it with ki or psionics or something else, it's got some sort of mystical edge.

Ki has never worked for me because as I understand it, ki is basically "martial spirit", the "will to win" or whatever you'd call it in Western sports terminology. It's just a mystical way of talking about the "heart of the warrior"...which just comes back to saying the monk is more bad-ass than the fighter because he has better training and more "heart".

Psionics I could totally get behind. This took the monk out of being a kind of warrior and instead a specialized kind of wizard. However, I believe this wasn't really popular with the people who want to play monks. I think they want the character to be a kind of warrior. And that's the role they fit into in the source mythology.

Obviously, I don't want to play a guy who uses a sword either because he's a lazy bum who refuses to get good enough to decapitate people with an open palm strike. I want my character to use a sword because using a sword is a really, really good idea.

Thus, I like the idea of eliminating the monk class, and having "campaign styles" like "Historical", "Sword&Sorcery", and "Wuxia", where, in wuxia, everybody gets access to something like a ki pool that allows them to do wild things like fly and run up walls.
 

Spiked chains. This weapon is absolutely absurd, and has no historic analog whatsoever...not even a farfetched one. But I suppose it is a perfect weapon for some comic-book archetypes. (shrug) Not my thing.
Ever see "The Blood of Heroes"? Classic late-80's Rutger Hauer post-apoc awesomeness. That's what I think of when I hear, "spiked chain" :)

-O
 

For me, there's always been enough historical precedent for the spiked chain. The thing I put my size 13's down on was double weapons...all double weapons.

"Weapons do not work that way!!!!"
 




Thus, I like the idea of eliminating the monk class, and having "campaign styles" like "Historical", "Sword&Sorcery", and "Wuxia", where, in wuxia, everybody gets access to something like a ki pool that allows them to do wild things like fly and run up walls.

You seem to be violating the terms of your own threads idea but whatever. All I wanted to say is that I really really dislike the implication that monk is purely wuxia, or is just a fighter but with different skin, or so on.

I love the monk, it is my number 1 class. And while I like it partially for its fighting prowess and partially for its ability to fly and run up walls* I love it for another completely different X factor which you failed to articulate here. I can therefore understand your missing it.

It isnt just about being a fighter who can do extra stuff, it is about the entire essence of what the character is. I think that is probably the same of rangers or paladins when the player or writer of the character truly gets the class. At the heart a monk does these things not through willpower or determination, he does them through meditation and perfection. Put another way, fighters are guys who train every day by swinging their blade or by shooting targets down with their bows. Rogues on the other hand spend their time thinking of tricks they can do during combat (or out of it) to get a leg up, because they know they will never have the fighters knack at battle. A monk is some ways a mix of these two. A monk knows the best way to use his opponents body against them and how to strike with the deadliest accuracy, not because they train every day swinging their sword around but because they know the human body and its limitations. I know this is like splitting hairs for a lot of people but it really does matter to me.

I play the monk when Im looking for a non-armor clad alternative. If he is good enough to stand toe to toe with the knight in his shining armor then that is great, if not then I expect to use my monk talents to be just as effective (and hopefully more so) in other respects. A monk could possibly use shadows like a rogue to disguise himself before he strikes or he could be about disarming and quivering palming his enemies to have the greatest effect. Being able to fly and dodge 100 arrows has very little to do with the monk in the grand scheme of things in this respect. It does however show the dedication to the art of perfecting body and mind. He flies not because everyone in that medium flies but because he has learned how to violate the laws of physics, much how a caster would.

Surprisingly perhaps I have just given reasons why the monk isnt just a fighter, but he is a fighter mixed with rogue mixed with wizard. And now I throw in the one that you should see coming, he is the cleric. That is part of his identity as a monk, but it is quite possibly the most throwaway aspect of the character, as much as anything is. A paladin without other paladins and without a goodly-order is still what he is. So too is the monk what he is without other monks or a temple up in the high mountains.

If you are looking for non-religious bends for the monk, in order to stick him into a medeval setting then there you go. He is an expert who perfects himself and uses tricks, like the rogue, and hopefully becomes more effective in battle, like the fighter, and more effective out of battle, like the wizard. If you dont want that fluff of monk dont use it. If you dont like the monk at all dont use it. Im happy either way. I just dont understand this random compulsion people have to want to take my monk away from me.


Also for the record, I have tried making a suitable backup build with classic 4 classes and it just isnt the same. He comes off too magical or too martial when that really isnt what I see him as. He should be more blended which is difficult to achieve outside a direct class.


*Well actually my monk can fly but the monk class (3.5 monk) cant.
 

Surprisingly perhaps I have just given reasons why the monk isnt just a fighter, but he is a fighter mixed with rogue mixed with wizard.


And in 1st Ed he was a bit like a druid mixed with psion mixed with thief, he could talk to animals and plants, thief skills, resist ESP/mental attacks, plus his own goodies (dodging missiles, quivering palm etc); I love the monk, and it is most definitely its own deal.
 

Tovec,

You are correct; I am violating the terms of my thread. I throw myself upon the mercy of the court, pleading only it was going that way already, and I just went along for the ride.

As to your point about the monk. You pointed out something I did not explicitly say, but is implicit in what I did say (and it's close to something I said elsewhere). In fact, what you said kind of proves my point about monks. They step all over everybody else...especially the fighter.

Look at what you wrote, the fighter trains every day, but the monk is the "totality", "perfection". You're defining what it means to be the other class. And the thing is, for the monk to exist, you have to do that. For the monk to carve out a space of its own, it has to be "special". There's no room for the fighter who becomes one with his blade, the most perfect blend of martial form imaginable, because that's the monk. The fighter's just a guy who needs a toolbox of gear to do what the monk does with all his super special training that nobody else has access to.

The monk really does not fit in a campaign set in, for instance, Arthurian Britain. Knights of the Round Table don't wear armor because they need it. It's not a fashion choice. A guy who can fight so well that he needs neither sword nor armor to be as damaging and well protected as Lancelot, well it makes a mockery of the entire story.

As I said, or at least implied. I don't like the monk because it stomps all over other character concepts, or, it's unnecessary because it's something that all warrior types should be able to do.
 
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