Stupid High Skill Checks and Saves

[hong]

Don't forget you can take 20 on Hide checks.

This is... debatable.

 

[LostSoul]

RPG books aren't like porn

If they were, I bet they would sell better.

 

[DonTadow]

Can't say Ive had that problem and i just got through wit ha campaign in epic levels.

Lower level encounters are easier to avoid. YOu want to challenge them, make sure the encounter is challenging.

Also, they are your players, don't give out items and allow wierd class variations if its something that is going to bother you later on.

 

[drothgery]

Well, I don't agree. I've recently found the "Wheel of Time" Rpg game book. It's very low magic. If your not a caster, you have no spell like or supernatural abilities. There are no magical itmes, and the few that exist are considered to be artifacts. Everyone is human, and the other playable race is supposed to live outside of humanity, so they are to be background: npc's to talk to.

Err... WoT is a low magic-item setting (and system). It's not by any stretch of the imagination a low-magic setting and system. There are thousands upon thousands of casters around, and the least powerful of them can easily defeat the greatest non-caster warriors in single combat. Non-casters with supernatural abilities are rare, but certainly exist (dreamwalkers, wolfbrothers, people like Mat, people like Min, Fain).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Err... WoT is a low magic-item setting (and system). It's not by any stretch of the imagination a low-magic setting and system. There are thousands upon thousands of casters around, and the least powerful of them can easily defeat the greatest non-caster warriors in single combat. Non-casters with supernatural abilities are rare, but certainly exist (dreamwalkers, wolfbrothers, people like Mat, people like Min, Fain).

And this is sort of true for a well-built caster in the WoT RPG--by well-built, I don't mean munchkined. I just mean you don't want to focus on direct damage, which is quite weak. Instead, you wrap people up in flows of air so that they are helpless. The trouble is that you're probably already dead in the RPG by the time you can touch the One Power unless you started holding Saidar/Saidin.

 

[William drake]

Err... WoT is a low magic-item setting (and system). It's not by any stretch of the imagination a low-magic setting and system. There are thousands upon thousands of casters around, and the least powerful of them can easily defeat the greatest non-caster warriors in single combat. Non-casters with supernatural abilities are rare, but certainly exist (dreamwalkers, wolfbrothers, people like Mat, people like Min, Fain).

Well, that's if you power up the world. In the books, there were only a few hundred female casters. And they were held into check by their Codes, and social and political influences. (so they can't just go around using their power as they saw fit) unless the DM just chose to side step the back bone of the game. Yes, dreamwalkers, most of whome were Aes Sedi, and then, they would be held into place by what's already been stated. Wolfbrothers-rare, and the ones that exist, lose themselves with their powers (become too wolf like) and are never seen again, or go mad and die. Yes, Fain, I think he was one of the enemies, touched by the Dark One... so yea, he's EVIL..and not playable.

But, unlike DnD. Magic just doesn't happen. It takes a full round to turn on your power, by that time, the fighters already moved in and cut you down. Also, like I've said, unless you don't use the social constraints of the world, the use of magic doesn't run amuck.

Now, male casters. Rare, maybe one per story who is a player. Other than that, most should go either insain, or side with the dark one *False Dragons* or be killed or Gentiled by the Aes Sedi. Also, most males who found out what they were, per the makeup of the world, wouldn't jus wish to go showing off who or what they were.

And, there are NO magical items: no wands, staffs, rings or w/e. The ones that exist, are considered relics or artifacts even though their powers may not equall those of the same name in DnD. The ability to make more magical items, is lost. So, once again, unless you choose not to use that, which makes the story, the story, then yes, the world might be like DnD.

Healing, only a caster can do it, and more than likely its a female. And Aes Sedi arn't just in every town. Now I know, a Wisdom could have the One Power, but not everyone does...*yes, the character from the book did, but that's the excpetion, not the norm.*


SO, to recap. If you change the world, and put in what's already been removed and toned down for the setting, then yes, the world could be high magic. But, as it is, it isn't.

thanks.

 

[drothgery]

Well, that's if you power up the world. In the books, there were only a few hundred female casters.

Errr... no. As of the last book, there were about a thousand Aes Sedai, nearly twice as many Kin, nearly a thousand novices recruited by Egwene, nearly five hundred Asha'man, several thousand Wise Ones that can channel, at least five hundred Windfinders, and an ungodly number of damane.

 

[Venator]

Eh.
10th-level good save - +7
+ 2 cloak/vest of resistance should be affordable
add + 5 stat bonus (figuring starting with a +2, two improvements along the way to a +3, and a +4 stat booster item to make it +5)

... and you'll have +14 to a save, which means you'll make DC 20s most of the time, as you only need to roll a 7, and only need a 5 to make DC 18s.

10th level bad save - +3
+ 2 cloak/vest of resistance should be affordable
+ 2 stat bonus (either started with a +2, or +1 and +2 stat item)
... and you've got a +7. Which makes DC 18s on a 12, and DC 20s on a 14.

So a very low-cheese (or possibly even cheese-free) 10th-level PC will pretty routinely make DC 18 saves. Throw in careful multiclassing, action points, save-boosting feats, and save-boosting class abilities, and you can get into only fail on a 1 territory.

Would you, and the community as a whole agree that these are pretty much standard "actual play" numbers for strong/weak saves? Are they to low, high?


I'm currently struggling to find what I feel to be the optimal use of feat slots to sure up my 9th level Fighters Will save, which is currently +4.

I'm thinking I should probably have a cloak of resistance +2 by 10th. I'm thinking of taking that new Fighter option from Complete Champion to sacrifice half of my base attack and add it to Will saves until the end of my next turn at 10th as well. That will give me a +11 to my Will save "on demand" but it will cost me +5 to hit for a round. What do you guys think about that? Am I better off takinf Iron Will or Combat Focus?

What do you feel the average "oh " save DC is at 10th level? 20-21ish? (5th level spells and a +5 from stats, items, ect?)

 

[drothgery]

Would you, and the community as a whole agree that these are pretty much standard "actual play" numbers for strong/weak saves? Are they to low, high?

Well, I didn't check DMG wealth guidelines or magic item prices for that; it was pretty much off the top of my head. And going by my personal guideline of "no more than 25% of your wealth on one item", the +4 stat item is probably out of line at 10th level. But since you could easily have a racial +2 stat bonus or +1 save bonus, or pick one up due to some special ability, I don't think that's too far out of line. But other than that I think it holds up pretty well.

 

[Nareau]

This is something I deal with in my game every week. Lemme tell ya--if you think it's hard to manage at 10th, you're in for some headaches at 18th level!

First off, it's a good sign that you're talking about this issue with your players. It shows you're already a good DM.

It's been my experience that D&D doesn't scale very well. Part of the problem (as I see it) is that after 10th level, the bonuses totally eclipse the dice. Another issue lies in the fact that two 15th level characters can have a difference of 20 or more in their AC/to hit bonuses. That makes it very difficult to determine how hard an encounter should be. The same creature can be a lethal threat to one PC, and a minor inconvenience to another.

Here's some solid bits of advice:

Know your PCs numbers. Each time my group levels up, I inspect their character sheet. Not only do I usually find one or two minor errors, but I also get a good sense of how I should be setting up encounters. If I know the PCs have an AC between 25 and 35 normally, and up to 55 when buffed...well, that tells me I need to throw creatures with at least a +20 or +40 to hit at them.

I'll echo the advice that you be willing to "cheat".

If a weak monster has a cool ability with a low save DC, try throwing a bunch of 'em at the party. But instead of making each PC make 5 or 10 saves, have them make a single save, with a +2 to the DC to each additional monster. So the Despair power of 6 mummies would be 17 (base) +10 (that's +2 for each beyond the first) = 27. That's a pretty good save DC number for an 18th level party, as the cleric will probably make it with no problem, and the fighter/rogue will likely fail.

If you're not already good with statistics, you might want to brush up a little. It helps a lot to be able to say, "This thing should hit 25% of the time, and should do 35 points of damage on average". It takes a long time, but I think one sign of being a great DM is that you're very rarely surprised at how an encounter turns out.

Good luck! If it gets to be too much, I might recommend you bring your game to a close before it hits really high levels. I know I sometimes wish I didn't have to prep for my high-level game...

Nareau