Stupid Question: PHB3 Minotaur Ferocity...

[Markn]

I'd be more interested as to what sort of action dying from hit point damage is, is it a free action, or is it an opportunity action?

If it's a free action, can you negate it with the stunned condition?

I'm curious as to how one can say the attack action is a distinct thing from the 'damage action'.

A lot of these rules arguments don't make a lick of sense, and I'm tempted to disregard them for being rediculous.

My guess is its not an action. The same as Delay, monster knowledge checks and (surpisingly) some utility powers are not an action either.

Edit - I think you can interrupt damage, you just can't negate it so the best way to look at it is that not every thing can be cancelled with an immediate interrupt.

 

[Mort_Q]

Seems we have a RAW =/= RAI situation... depending on ones opinion of their intent.

Is it supposed to he a free swing before you drop, or is it supposed to allow the possibility of negating the attack (assuming it's an adjacent creature that drops you).

I'd assume the former, but that's just an assumption.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'd be more interested as to what sort of action dying from hit point damage is, is it a free action, or is it an opportunity action?

If it's a free action, can you negate it with the stunned condition?

I'm curious as to how one can say the attack action is a distinct thing from the 'damage action'.

A lot of these rules arguments don't make a lick of sense, and I'm tempted to disregard them for being rediculous.

I totally agree, they do get pretty silly. In this case though the question at least is worth answering as it makes a pretty big difference as to what the feat actually accomplishes.

FWIW my feeling is that 'states' and 'triggers' are not things that in and of themselves 'happen', they just 'are'. IE when you hit 0 hit points you simply "are unconscious", it doesn't happen like an action, its simply a 'state' (in this case actually a specific condition) that you are in when you have 0 hit points. Triggers themselves are pretty much analogous, when the triggering conditions are met the trigger simply 'happens', at which point whatever sort of action it triggers is initiated.

I agree that there is no distinct 'damage action'. Damage is simply what happens at step 5 of resolving an attack. If a trigger happened on 'taking damage' then it would definitely be possible for it to roll back the triggering action by RAW. When the trigger is a result of a specific state being true, then it isn't really happening because of the action that did the damage, nor in this case is it even modifying the attack, its just doing "something else". It seems to be true that it is happening DURING the attack, but then again step 5 is the end of the attack so we can't even say that for sure.

This is definitely one for the WotC rules lawyer Q&A board. At least someone there will have already answered a dozen like it, even if their answers aren't really any better than ours.

 

[Felon]

Incorrect.

Immediate Interrupts occur before the -action- that triggered them, irregardless of which individual part of that action was the trigger.

So, yes, Ferocity can kill your opponent, thus rendering him unable to take actions, thus invalidating his entire action.

While it is correct that an immediate interrupt can turn back the clock, it is incorrect that Ferocity can negate an attack, because an attack is not the trigger. Trebor is quite correc there.

I have my PHB open. Dropping to 0 HP is what's being interrupted, not an attack. You can certainly kill the guy before you go down, but his blow already landed.

 

[Mort_Q]

I have my PHB open. Dropping to 0 HP is what's being interrupted, not an attack. You can certainly kill the guy before you go down, but his blow already landed.

I agree that that is the intent.

DracoSauve is taking, if I understand his post, term action in this clause; "If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost" to be an action in the official sense. This also has some merit.

There are a few terms that need to be better defined in 4e... or at least used more carefully.

 

[N0Man]

I'll note that I completely agree than an interrupt, by definition, interrupts the action and happens before it. I think the action it's interrupting is you dropping to 0, though, not the enemy's attack.

This is exactly how I read it as well. It seems clear to me that they specifically chose the condition was that you drop to 0 hit points, not that you are hit by an attack that reduces you to 0 hit points.

There are many other interrupt actions where it clearly is triggered off the attack, and this one clearly was specifically *NOT* triggered by the attack. In fact, an attack is not even required for this particular wording. If you take damage from a hazard or some environmental damage, it still applies because the trigger is being reduced to 0 HP.

I don't see a RAW vs RAI argument here. The literal interpretation (RAW) seems to be in line with the context and what appears to be logical (RAI), and only is confusing and broken if you try to read more into it than is actually there.

 

[Nightson]

It has to be an immediate interrupt, if it was an immediate reaction it would mean you were supposed to attack after you had already fallen unconscious. Given how it could trigger off damage totally unrelated to the attack, I'd rule that the minotaur still falls unconscious.

 

[RangerWickett]

Odd how the rules don't seem to be able to handle actions occurring at the same time.

 

[DracoSuave]

It has to be an immediate interrupt, if it was an immediate reaction it would mean you were supposed to attack after you had already fallen unconscious. Given how it could trigger off damage totally unrelated to the attack, I'd rule that the minotaur still falls unconscious.

Other than ongoing damage, or damage triggered by your own moving, what possible way is there to take damage other than someone taking an action?

Notice in those two cases, you don't get to Ferocity anyways, as it's your turn.

 

[Runestar]

How often is it that you can end up killing a foe with that free attack before he kills you? Seems extremely rare, to the extent that even if I allowed it, the chances of such a scenario coming up would be extremely rare.

Or is there something I am overlooking?