Stupid Question: PHB3 Minotaur Ferocity...

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I disagree - the interupt occurs immediate before the trigger - otherwise it could never interupt it.

Otherwise, abilities like the Sorceror utility Sudden Scales (which gives a bonus to defences versus an attack that hit the sorceror) would do nothing as the bonus wouldn't be able to turn the hit into a miss as it would occur after the hit.

What you are doing is turning interupts into reacitions - those occur immediately after the trigger, not interupts.

So, yes, if the minotaur's attack allows it to prevent/heal some of the damage so that it doesn't go below zero, it doesn't fall uncouscious. That said, since the trigger is after the hit, killing the person who drops the minotaur to zero doesn't prevent the attack and therefore it would still take the damage.

That's my take, anyway.

 

[kaomera]

I disagree - the interupt occurs immediate before the trigger - otherwise it could never interupt it.

Interrupt: An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. For example, an enemy makes a melee attack against you, but you use a power that lets you shift away as an immediate interrupt. If your enemy can no longer reach you, the enemy’s attack action is lost.

Now I could be completely wrong on this, but the way I'm reading that:

1) You "jump in" when the trigger arises - not before.
2) You "jump in" before the trigger resolves - so you have to process the Interrupt first, before any other results of the triggering condition.
3) The "invalidates a triggering action" is the only bit that's seems really awkward. However - if the Interrupt happened before the trigger it would be redundant, since the trigger would simply fail to happen if it was invalidated. Instead I'm taking it to mean that you check the trigger condition again before proceeding to any other effects thereof...

Otherwise, abilities like the Sorceror utility Sudden Scales (which gives a bonus to defences versus an attack that hit the sorceror) would do nothing as the bonus wouldn't be able to turn the hit into a miss as it would occur after the hit.

So, because there's a specific rule (the "invalidates a triggering action" statement) for this, the hit can be invalidated. It can't be completely removed - you have to have been hit to use Sudden Scales, if you can remove the hit you create a paradox. But because you're simply "invalidating" the hit, I'm taking it that you where hit, and then your defenses improved to the point that the hit is invalidated and you stop processing any/all effects of the hit. {Possible Can O' Worms: RAI I'd assume that you instead proceed to process the effects of a miss, but that's only implied, I think?}

Anyway, that's how it all starts to make sense to me...

I dunno, now. I had gotten the impression that a Reaction occurred after the action that contained the trigger, but upon re-reading the rest of the Compendium entry for Immediate Actions I see that it only happens after the trigger has "fully resolved", with an exception for movement. And I'm not even sure exactly what that means...

 

[exnusquam123]

Skimmed through most pages in this post and thought it was interesting enough to reply to...

I agree with one of the original responders to the thread - DracoSuave.
The rule on Interrupts is simple and easy to follow mechanically. When its trigger occurs, the immediate interrupt activates and takes precedence over its trigger and its triggers effect - it takes precedence because in game-time it occurs before the trigger's effect .... and here is odd part ... it can happen before the trigger does. This is because real-world intentions and pending effects are not always in-sync with game-world and game-time events. Here is what I mean.

To me, the Immediate Interrupt has a purpose in the game - to interrupt actions or consequences of actions. In the case of the Minotaur Ferocity Trait, I think it should actually have read "When you [WOULD HAVE DROPPED] to 0 hit points or fewer [BY AN ATTACK], you can make a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt." I truly think this is the intent of the authors - the minotaur sees his demise coming and reacts instinctively, lashing out at the attacker! This isn't a preternatural ability ... it's the " #^@&, nooooooo! " inborn response of any living being.

(One other viewpoint is that they typoed or something and actually meant Immediate Reaction - i.e., the minotaur goes down with one last swing before falling prone, dying.)

Another example: I ready an action as such, "If the monster hits me, I teleport away." In this case, when a creature hits me, it does damage because I cannot tell if it hits me unless .... it hits me! CONTRAST

 

[exnusquam123]

Skimmed through most pages in this post and thought it was interesting enough to reply to...

I agree with one of the original responders to the thread - DracoSuave.
The rule on Interrupts is simple and easy to follow mechanically. When its trigger occurs, the immediate interrupt activates and takes precedence over its trigger and its triggers effect - it takes precedence because in game-time it occurs before the trigger's effect .... and here is odd part ... it can happen before the trigger does. This is because real-world intentions and pending effects are not always in-sync with game-world and game-time events. Here is what I mean.

To me, the Immediate Interrupt has a purpose in the game - to interrupt actions or consequences of actions. In the case of the Minotaur Ferocity Trait, I think it should actually have read "When you [WOULD HAVE DROPPED] to 0 hit points or fewer [BY AN ATTACK], you can make a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt." I truly think this is the intent of the authors - the minotaur sees his demise coming and reacts instinctively, lashing out at the attacker! This isn't a preternatural ability ... it's the " #^@&, nooooooo! " inborn response of any living being.

(One other viewpoint is that they typoed or something and actually meant Immediate Reaction - i.e., the minotaur goes down with one last swing before falling prone, dying.)

Another example: I ready an action as such, "If the monster hits me, I teleport away." In this case, when a creature hits me, it does damage because I cannot tell if it hits me unless .... it hits me! CONTRAST this to the following for Sudden Scales, "Trigger: You are hit by an attack.", "Effect: You gain a +4 bonus to all defenses against the triggering attack." As you can see... both had the same trigger, but the immediate interrupt can cause you not to even be hit, which was the trigger! - because although in the real-world events were : DM decides to attack, DM rolls, DM hits, Player states use of Immediate Interrupt, DM adjusts roll, DM sees that he actually missed.... in the game-world the events are : Monster attacks, magically the sorcerer feels the incoming hit and instinctively defends as ... "arcane power shields your mind and body from harm." ... per the PHB 2, pg.141.... see? in many many cases, Immediate Interrupts can and will (as stated by DracoSuave) alter their own triggers because they are instinctive or magical interventions just in the nick of time!

Conclusion... Mino Ferocity means that they can escape death barely by sensing their impending doom and reacting before it happens by lashing out with a basic attack... thereby sometimes altering their own fate with quick .... heroic.... actions -- and live on to die another day.


Ex