Stupid Question: PHB3 Minotaur Ferocity...

[keterys]

The errata thread is really messy, but: Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

And the CS response:
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Hello,

Thank you for contacting us! Here are the answers I found:

1. The wording of this feature has caused some argument. The wording implies that no matter what you do with the attack, you will take the damage.
A; You are miss-understanding the trait. When you drop to 0 hit points or fewer, you can make a melee basic attack as an immediate interrupt. You must be at 0 or fewer to do this. So you are attacked, you hit points drop to 0 from the attack, you then make a melee basic attack then drop to the ground and go unconscious. That's all this trait does.

2. If the attack granted by Ferocity can push the target a number of squares that would put them out of range of hitting the Minotaur, is the attack negated?
A: No, this does not negate the attack that put you at 0 hp.

3. If the attack granted by Ferocity can allow the Minotaur to regain Hit Points, and this would bring the Minotaurs Hit Point total high enough to survive the attack that triggered the Ferocity attack, will the Minotaur survive?
A: Yes, he would drop to 0 then gain the hit points and continues to stand.

4. Does this apply if the Ferocity attack granted Temporary Hit Points as well?
A: No, temporary hit points does not bring you actual life total above 0 since they are a different type of hit point.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Do you have a reference, by any chance? That doesn't make any sense. An immediate interrupt happens before the action that triggered it; an immediate reaction happens after it. Consistent and straightforward.

Interrupt: An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. For example, an enemy makes a melee attack against you, but you use a power that lets you shift away as an immediate interrupt. If your enemy can no longer reach you, the enemy’s attack action is lost.

i bolded the important part... before the triggering condition... the action thing is a different thing.

what can happen is that you use an invigorating attack and get some THP so that you don´t fall unconscious. Then you can still make the attack even if you are not dropped below 0 hp.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Interrupt: An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. For example, an enemy makes a melee attack against you, but you use a power that lets you shift away as an immediate interrupt. If your enemy can no longer reach you, the enemy’s attack action is lost.

i bolded the important part... before the triggering condition... the action thing is a different thing.

what can happen is that you use an invigorating attack and get some THP so that you don´t fall unconscious. Then you can still make the attack even if you are not dropped below 0 hp.

hmhm... ok i would have timed THP different but ok...

 

[Mengu]

They probably just need to get rid of the "immediate interrupt" wording to clear this out, and define it's own timing. Otherwise, it's very easy to misinterpret the intention, and to think it works like any other immediate interrupt, potentially negating the damage with simple tricks like Power of Skill/Overwhelming Strike even at level 1, let alone using paragon tools.

If they want to keep it an immediate action though (so it's not combined with other immediate actions), there isn't a very good way to clarify this.

It may be best to simply allow it to work as an interrupt, but perhaps limit it to once per encounter.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am still not convinced there is a problem... only when healing and THP kick in...IMHO before the damage dealt...

 

[keterys]

Primary methods of breaking this if things trigger before the attack:
* Abilities which move you, such as Pressing, Nimble, or Deft Strike such that you are no longer a valid target for the attack, nullifying it
* Abilities which move the target, such as Pressing Strike, Footwork Lure, Eldritch Strike such that you are no longer a valid target for the attack, nullifying it
* Abilities which give you a defensive bonus or the attacker an attack penalty, such as Disheartening or Enfeebling Strike or Priest's Shield, such that the attack no longer hits (also includes melee basic attacks with hammers with 'Hammer Shock' feat)
* Abilities that prevent damage by reducing the enemy damage or supplying you with temporary hp...
* Damage, such that the attacker dies...

To break it if it counts afterwards is more difficult:
* Some means of healing, such as an Iron Vanguard's healing feature, Astral Seal on a target, or Stirring Shout

 

[UngeheuerLich]

yeah, right, but it just doesn´t trigger before the attack, just before the damage is dealt... between beeing hit and damage dealt. If you can receive THP or normal healing, you can prevent going down and it is ok.

If healing is done after damage dealt it is again ridiculous, because you automatically stand up again if you receive just a single point of healing...

 

[Zaran]

Discussed this with Korjik, if the attack was intended on being interrupted the power would have said the trigger was the attack that caused the minotaur to be dropped to 0. You are interrupting the minotaur's falling unconscious state to do the attack but you would still have the damage that brings you to 0 hp.

Now, if you manage to use an attack that gives you temporary hit points you would be at 0hp and N thp thus being revived instantly albeit temporarily.

That's our take on the situation. I'm thinking that since everything is getting so complicated to read that we should start putting Advanced before every Dungeons and Dragons logo besides the PHB. =)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

hehe^^

but THP can´t temporarily revive you...

 

[N0Man]

Do you have a reference, by any chance? That doesn't make any sense. An immediate interrupt happens before the action that triggered it; an immediate reaction happens after it. Consistent and straightforward.

But it doesn't happen before the action that triggered, but the condition that triggered it. If that condition happens to be an action, and the interrupt invalidates the action, then yes the action can be invalidated.

However, since the *condition* is dropping to 0 or below hit points, not the attack itself as it is stated in many other examples.

The only way that the trigger can be invalidated is if your attack prevents your hit points from going to 0 or lower. However, if your attack has the ability to grant you hit point recovery that would prevent you from going below 0, then I would certainly say that going to 0 or below has been invalidated and you stay conscious.