D&D General Styles of D&D Play

[Neonchameleon]

Of course you had to use different skills that was part of the text I provided. As far as other skills, yes you could use them, but the guidance was to make the DC hard.

I quoted the text, people ran it as written and it was pure rollplay. Just being able to use a different skill doesn't change anything. About the only thing what people have done is give someone advantage on a roll.

The basic formula didn't change, X successes before 3 failures. It was rollplay which, for me and the people I played with, sucked the life out of the game.

If you ran it as rollplay then of course it was rollplay. Did you openly tell your players "this is a skill challenge. You need X successes before three failures?" and by doing so make them focus on the mechanics?

Because I found them to be an excellent improvisational tool when the PCs came up with a completely off the wall plan. It gave me a structure for the length and the difficulty. And because I had this structure rather than having to separately calculate each step of the plan it allowed me to create a far more immersive and free flowing game than at the time I had the skill to without the tool. And I too ran them as I believe they were written.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you ran it as rollplay then of course it was rollplay. Did you openly tell your players "this is a skill challenge. You need X successes before three failures?" and by doing so make them focus on the mechanics?

Because I found them to be an excellent improvisational tool when the PCs came up with a completely off the wall plan. It gave me a structure for the length and the difficulty. And because I had this structure rather than having to separately calculate each step of the plan it allowed me to create a far more immersive and free flowing game than at the time I had the skill to without the tool. And I too ran them as I believe they were written.

Are you advocating deceiving your players as to whether or not they're participating in a skill challenge?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Are you advocating deceiving your players as to whether or not they're participating in a skill challenge?

I don't see where the deception comes in. The player characters are trying to do something in the gameworld - and I no more present them with the skill challenge details than I do the exact monster statblocks or read out all my notes.

Are you advocating that everything the DM does and all their notes and aids should be shared with the players?

 

[Hussar]

I quoted the relevant rules from the 4E DMG and linked to the page I found them on. If I missed something let me know. Until then, I stand by what I said if you follow the rules. I don't care how you ran it.

Yes, but, you're ignoring the fact that the 4e DMG rules ARE NOT THE ONLY RULES FOR RUNNING A SKILL CHALLENGE.

A point that has been made to you repeatedly. Over and over again. That the rules in the 4e DMG are not written very well, but, the later rules in both the DMG 2 (3?) and the Rules Compendium, both of which are meant to supersede the 4e DMG ARE THE RULES YOU ARE MEANT TO USE.



And, of course, the irony here is, when the same thing is done back to you, about how the mechanics in 5e don't actually support different playstyles, when the exact quotes in the DMG are quoted to you, you simply insist that people are using the mechanics wrong.

The irony here is so thick.

 

[Minigiant]

Of course you had to use different skills that was part of the text I provided. As far as other skills, yes you could use them, but the guidance was to make the DC hard.

I quoted the text, people ran it as written and it was pure rollplay. Just being able to use a different skill doesn't change anything. About the only thing what people have done is give someone advantage on a roll.

The basic formula didn't change, X successes before 3 failures. It was rollplay which, for me and the people I played with, sucked the life out of the game.

My friend you aren't reading the rues right.

Set a level for the challenge and DCs for the checks
involved. as a starting point, set the level of the chal-
lenge to the level of the party, and use moderate
DCs for the skill checks (see the Difficulty Class and
Damage by Level table on page 42).
If you use easy DCs, reduce the level of the chal-
lenge by one. If you use hard DCs, increase the level
of the challenge by two. You can also adjust the level
of the challenge by reducing the number of failures
needed to end the challenge. Cut the number of
failures needed in half, and increase the level of the
challenge by two. (You can also mix DCs in the same
challenge, as described on page 74.)

Informing the Players
In a combat encounter, the players already know a
great deal about how to overcome the challenge. They
know that the monsters possess defenses and hit
points, and that everyone acts in initiative order. Fur-
thermore, they know exactly what happens when their
own attacks hit—and after a few rounds, they have a
good sense of the likelihood of their attacks hitting.
But a skill challenge is a different story. When the
PCs are delving through the Underdark in search
of the ruined dwarven fortress of Gozar-Duun, they
don’t necessarily know how the game adjudicates that
search. They don’t know what earns successes, to put it
in game terms, until you tell them.

4e DMG 74-76

1. Default DC is moderate
2. You can raise and lower the DCs and number of successes
3. The PCs don't know all the skills that work
4. A successful skill check can have other rewards and penalties other that a success

The rules were there. The rules support Exploration, Intrigue, Mystery, Drama, Combat.

The book gave examples for Negociation, Interrogation, Navigation, Investigations, and Combat. All the Gations!

Then the 2nd DMG offers examples to close a portal, walk through a ward, traking a demon, chasing bandits, trekking through a maze, etc. And it introduced multiple stage skill challenges.

The 4e skill challenges system was one of best unused, poorly laid out, and misunderstood rules systems in all of TTRPGs.

I'm tempted to collect, reorganize, and rejigger the examples for the 2024 5e edition. One for every common D&D noncombat encounter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't see where the deception comes in. The player characters are trying to do something in the gameworld - and I no more present them with the skill challenge details than I do the exact monster statblocks or read out all my notes.

Are you advocating that everything the DM does and all their notes and aids should be shared with the players?

Well, when one enters a combat in D&D, one rolls initiative and play proceeds in turn order. In short, the players are fully aware of the mechanical underpinnings of their endeavor. Why should that be any different when going through the quite mechanically clear process of a skill challenge?

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, but, you're ignoring the fact that the 4e DMG rules ARE NOT THE ONLY RULES FOR RUNNING A SKILL CHALLENGE.

A point that has been made to you repeatedly. Over and over again. That the rules in the 4e DMG are not written very well, but, the later rules in both the DMG 2 (3?) and the Rules Compendium, both of which are meant to supersede the 4e DMG ARE THE RULES YOU ARE MEANT TO USE.

The rules are in the DMG. THe DMG2 just expands it.

The problem is that if something isn't layered with a random chart, a flow chart, class table, or a spell list, D&D players don't read it. Especially DMs.

They browse through, skip it, and get mad that something is wrong.

 

[Minigiant]

Well, when one enters a combat in D&D, one rolls initiative and play proceeds in turn order. In short, the players are fully aware of the mechanical underpinnings of their endeavor. Why should that be any different when going through the quite mechanically clear process of a skill challenge?

Because it's not a combat

DMG 75

Informing the Players
In a combat encounter, the players already know a
great deal about how to overcome the challenge. They
know that the monsters possess defenses and hit
points, and that everyone acts in initiative order. Fur-
thermore, they know exactly what happens when their
own attacks hit—and after a few rounds, they have a
good sense of the likelihood of their attacks hitting.
But a skill challenge is a different story. When the
PCs are delving through the Underdark in search
of the ruined dwarven fortress of Gozar-Duun, they
don’t necessarily know how the game adjudicates that
search. They don’t know what earns successes, to put it
in game terms, until you tell them.
You can’t start a skill challenge until the PCs know
their role in it, and that means giving them a couple
of skills to start with. It might be as simple as saying,
“You’ll use athletics checks to scale the cliffs, but be
aware that a failed check might dislodge some rocks
on those climbing below you.” If the PCs are trying to
sneak into the wizard’s college, tell the players, “Your
magical disguises, the Bluff skill, and knowledge of the
academic aspects of magic—Arcana, in other words—
will be key in this challenge.”

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because it's not a combat

DMG 75

See, to me, you might as well either present the framework to the players (as many, many 4e players did), or just run the situation free-form (which is what I generally do). The whole idea of using the frame but not talking about it has no value to me, whether that's what the rules say or not.

 

[Minigiant]

See, to me, you might as well either present the framework to the players (as many, many 4e players did), or just run the situation free-form (which is what I generally do). The whole idea of using the frame but not talking about it has no value to me, whether that's what the rules say or not.

The players only need to know

1. That it's a skill challenge
2. The goal of the skill challenge
3. A couple skills that work in the challenge
4. That a PC can't reuse a skill again because it's secondary
5. That's X failures and you're out