Sub Levels -> Alternate Class Features

[Psion]

I like both Sub levels and alt. class features. I think the racial sub levels should be more powerful, though: a half-orc should be the best barbarian, a halfling should make the best rogue, a gnome should make the best bard, etc etc (not sure about humans or halfelfs).

I don't know about best, but I do think that class abilities that highlights the features of the race are a good idea. I mean sure, a gnome barbarian might not be the first concept you come to, but you should think of things that make the character have the flavor of the race. Gnome have an affinity for burrowing mammals, maybe a gnome barbarian might get a badger animal companion?

Warlords of the Accordlands is cool in that for all classes, all races receive special abilities. Cool, eh?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Lol sure sounds like D&D needs to just give up on all the individual class abilities and suit up with class talent trees instead ala d20modern already heh. Just introduce new talent trees, would be alot tidier...

Hell, I'd say it's time to go further than than and go point buy all the way.

Might solve some of those skill use problems too.

But then the sacred cows of levels might prevent such from happening. :\

 

[Psion]

Hell, I'd say it's time to go further than than and go point buy all the way.

Might solve some of those skill use problems too.

And invite all the problems that point buy systems have.

I'd say if you can tolerate those, you should be playing a point buy system now instead of trying to reshape D&D into something it isn't.

 

[GreatLemur]

Hell, I'd say it's time to go further than than and go point buy all the way.

Point buy would be beautiful, but I think D&D's traditional culture is too competitive (or rules-exploitative, to be honest) for that to work out. Besides, really flexible point buy systems have the drawback of not really needing a lot of cruchy splatbooks in addition to the core rules, and you know WotC wouldn't be cool with that.

 

[Gold Roger]

Hell, I'd say it's time to go further than than and go point buy all the way.

Might solve some of those skill use problems too.

But then the sacred cows of levels might prevent such from happening. :\

Well, I immensely enjoy classes.

I see lots of very good and popular point buy based games and systems. But outside of D&D and d20, I'm drawing blank on good class based systems. So personally, I'd prefer D&D to keep it's clase based system.

Classes provide a unified basis assumption of roles filled in the setting a point buy/generic classes just can't provide. Adding to many new base classes is detrimental to this system, which is by the way why I've come to favor variant features over those.

 

[GreatLemur]

Classes provide a unified basis assumption of roles filled in the setting a point buy/generic classes just can't provide. Adding to many new base classes is detrimental to this system, which is by the way why I've come to favor variant features over those.

Well, then we can agree that more flexible classes would be better than just more classes.

 

[Psion]

Well, then we can agree that more flexible classes would be better than just more classes.

Even I can agree with that.

Of course, I seem to be in the minority there, with so many others lapping up new classes from the WotC class mill like a cat to a fresh bowl of milk.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Even I can agree with that.

Of course, I seem to be in the minority there, with so many others lapping up new classes from the WotC class mill like a cat to a fresh bowl of milk.

Which is why I say a point buy system would take care of that.

With the right supplements, D&D is hardly a class based game. If you're playing a character with multiple classes and substitution levels and alternative class abilities, really, where does the appeal of a 'class' based system come into play?

 

[Psion]

Which is why I say a point buy system would take care of that.

But again, expose you to the vulnerability of point based system.

No thanks.

I played HERO. I played GURPS. I know the score. Ultimate freedom of character design is not the sole goal to aspire to in character generation. Manageability, organization, embedding concepts in mechanics, and creation of a team based archetype system that can be modeled and understood are things that those games don't buy me.

There is a compromise to be had. You can create classes that provide conceptual flexibility while still remaining in credible design boundaries and frameworks that facilitate creation of character appropriate for the activity at hand.

 

[dog45]

I like both Sub levels and alt. class features. I think the racial sub levels should be more powerful, though: a half-orc should be the best barbarian, a halfling should make the best rogue, a gnome should make the best bard, etc etc (not sure about humans or halfelfs). Other than the gnome bard (and illusionist) and elf wizard sub levels, though, I don't think many of the sub levels make that big of a difference. The alternative features should remain little trinkets to customize the character.

I'd prefer text next to the racial description simply giving bonuses to race-class matches, instead of giving races favored classes.

emphasis mine.

The Goliath Barbarian 1st level Sub is a really good one. When you Rage, you actually supersize to Large.

The Changeling Rogue 1st level Sub is also damn good. Gather Info checks in minutes, not hours. Take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Intimidate, and Sense Motive? yes please.

The Changeling Wizards 5th level Morphic Familiar is cool and fits the flavor well.

Also, the Warforged Artificer sub levels.