D&D (2024) Subclasses at first level and multiclassing

[mellored]

You start counting from one, so that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Ability scores start counting from 8
Ability modifier start counting from 12
Proficiency bonus starts counting from 2.
Dice start counting from 4.

So no, start at 1 argument is long gone.

Let the groups decide where they start

Yes.
With differing levels offering differing amounts of options.

 

[Horwath]

I don't think the default starting level should be level 3. You start counting from one, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. Merging the abilities/subclass to level 1 AND starting at level 3+ should be optional rules in the DMG. Let the groups decide where they start and with what.

then 1st level characters need more stuff so they aren't boring to play.

in last 8 years we only started one campaign from 1st level. The very 1st campaign of 5E.
Everything else started from 3rd to 6th level.

DMG should have option of level zero for few features to start with.

 

[Maxperson]

Ability scores start counting from 8

Ability scores start counting from 3, because 3 to 18 when rolling stats. Levels start at 1 since 1-20.

Ability modifier start counting from 12

Those also start at 3, because 3-18 when rolling stats.

Proficiency bonus starts counting from 2.

Proficiency is not level, which goes from 1 to 20. It would make no sense for level to go from 3-20. Do you know what 3-20 is? It's 1-18. Proficiency is also designed completely differently than level and serves a totally different function. Unlike level, it could not start at 1 and meet the function it is designed to meet. The entire game would have to be modified to account for the lower start.

Dice start counting from 4.

Dice start counting from 1. 1-2. 1-3, 1-4, 1-6, 1-8, and so on.

So no, start at 1 argument is long gone.

False Equivalences are false. Nothing you said is equivalent to level.

 

[Maxperson]

then 1st level characters need more stuff so they aren't boring to play.

For some people, yes. That's why there should be options in the DMG for starting with subclass at level 1.

in last 8 years we only started one campaign from 1st level. The very 1st campaign of 5E.
Everything else started from 3rd to 6th level.

95% of the games I've played in the last 20 years have started at 3+. A lot of people like to start at 1, though.

DMG should have option of level zero for few features to start with.

That, too.

 

[mellored]

Ability scores start counting from 3, because 3 to 18 when rolling stats. Levels start at 1 since 1-20.

That too starts at 3, not 1.
Point buy starts at 8.

Those also start at 3, because 3-18 when rolling stats.

No,
3 is -4 modifier
10 is supposed to be average, which starts at 0.
12 = 1.

It would make no sense for level to go from 3-20.

Again, most people don't make it to 20.

You can still start at level 1 if you want. No one is suggested you would not be allowed.

What was suggested was that more levels = more options. And level 1 should have minimum options.

 

[Lojaan]

then 1st level characters need more stuff so they aren't boring to play.

in last 8 years we only started one campaign from 1st level. The very 1st campaign of 5E.
Everything else started from 3rd to 6th level.

DMG should have option of level zero for few features to start with.

If you don't enjoy playing at first level - that's totally fine! You don't need to! You can start at any level you like.

You find level 1 characters boring to play. That's totally fine. Perhaps the best solution is for you not to play level 1 characters, rather than try to make level 1 characters more complicated and powerful for everyone else.

I do think that having very clear tiers of play would help with this. Establish that T1 is "introductory adventure" and make it clear that it is expected groups will skip this and jump right into the "real" adventure at a higher character level if the group is happy to do so.

 

[Maxperson]

That too starts at 3, not 1.
Point buy starts at 8.

Stats are a False Equivalence to level.

No,
3 is -4 modifier
10 is supposed to be average, which starts at 0.
12 = 1.

Yes. I am correct here. A negative modifier is a modifier. You incorrectly claimed that modifiers start at 12. Then I incorrectly stated that they start at 3. They actually start at 1 and go to 30. Hmm. 1-30 and 1-20. Maybe stats aren't a False Equivalence after all.

Again, most people don't make it to 20.

And a whole lot of us do.

You can still start at level 1 if you want. No one is suggested you would not be allowed.

1 is the baseline. The option should be 3. It's silly in the extreme to count levels from 1-20 and then make the default 3. The default should absolutely be 1, with the option to start at 3. That option already exists in the DMG by the way. It's on page 38.

What was suggested was that more levels = more options. And level 1 should have minimum options.

The dispute is in how many options should be minimum. Currently the game is good as is for new players. So the minimum that it currently has is fine. There should be options for experienced players to start at level 3 and bring subclass down to level 1.

 

[mellored]

1 is the baseline. The option should be 3.

Why not roll 3d6 as your starting level be the baseline?
Or start at 0?
Or start at -4?

You just picked a number. It's not better or worse than any other number.

 

[Maxperson]

Why not roll 3d6 as your starting level be the baseline?
Or start at 0?
Or start at -4?

Because it's intuitive to start at level 1 and go to 20(or higher). It would be silly and unintuitive to start at 3d6 or -4 or 3!. Talk about power disparity among PCs! 0 is a possibility. People are trained to include 0 as a starting point. Better to start at one and leave 0 as one of the optional rules, though.

 

[mellored]

Because it's intuitive to start at level 1 and go to 20(or higher). It would be silly and unintuitive to start at 3d6 or -4 or 3!.

Ability scores and modifiers are very unintuitive and silly. I agree.
Never thought about factorials...

Talk about power disparity among PCs!

Rolling stats does do that.

0 is a possibility. People are trained to include 0 as a starting point. Better to start at one and leave 0 as one of the optional rules, though.

D&D trained me to start at any number. 1, 3, -4, 8, 0. All starting places.

But again. No one is taking level 1 away from you. You can still start there.