MichaelSomething
Legend
I don't want subclasses at level one. Level one is suppose to be commoner+.
Subclasses should start at 1st level
- Thread starter Charlaquin
- Start date
Vaalingrade
Legend
Commoner + is NPC or Level 0. They should just make a level 0 and stop half-assing it, I say.
Let the man part of the game about heroic fantasy be about fantastic heroes.
Let the man part of the game about heroic fantasy be about fantastic heroes.
D&D level 1 isn't commoner+ anymore. It's Rookie level. Fresh of the (Class Name) Academy. Glorified Apprentice. First quest is some dude's basement.
Yaarel
Mind Mage
Yeah. Level 1 is something like a 20 year old college student − or its equivalent.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Nobody would survive to 2nd level.
“Mom, the monster wouldn’t give me his treasure! Apparently it just gets to turn a failed saving throw into a success! It’s so unfair!”
“Don’t worry, I will call the administrator of the dungeon and fix this for you. Oh, aon’t forget to bring your dirty armor home this weekend!”
“Thanks, mum.”
Yaarel
Mind Mage
At least in my campaigns, the "mom" / mentor / contact is part of the student tier, levels 1 to 4, when they return home from an adventure.
Levels 5 to 8 is the professional tier.
I agree with this regarding prestige classes.
I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game and when I created the character originally I had an idea of what they were about and what their intended beliefs and focuses were (and where they believed they were going to go as they got older.) And when flipping through the online Pathfinder online SRD I found a prestige class that had pretty much the flavor of where I thought my character was heading.
Only problem was... it would involve multiclassing and the nitpicky little "need this feature here", "that feat there" etc. etc... all to reach a prestige class for whom the mechanics seemed so generic and disconnected to the fluff anyway. And I realized once more (after having come to a similar conclusion all those years ago when I played 3E)... that I could just play my character with the fluff I had thought of for him as though he had this specific prestige class... without needing to jump through all the goshdarn design hoops to get there.
I found there absolutely was a dopamine rush when I considered what the story of "gaining the prestige class" would give me... but once that rush went away I came to the conclusion that it was just a whole bunch of pain in the ass mechanics to wade through to get there and that actually having that prestige class would not gain me anything more than just playing the character as though I already had it.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Very Torchbearer.
You know what a lot of people really should do if they want subclasses at Level 1 but the game ends up going in a different direction?
Just create and name their character's Background as part of their subclass.
In that way you get the best of both worlds... you get to denote who your character is and what they feel they are from the very beginning of their adventuring career... and they gain mechanical benefits for having it-- a pair of skills, a tool, language, and a feat. Basically turn your Background into your very first subclass feature.
Make your Background "Acolyte of the Open Hand Temple". Or "Yoriki to the Local Samurai". Or "Student of the Illusion School". Or "Fey Chanter of the Glamour Queen". Or "Adherent of the Moon Circle".
Heck... there's probably a good DM's Guild product right there-- writing up a whole bunch of Backgrounds that are all connected to each of the subclasses in the game, with all the proper mechanical selections made to boost it.
Just create and name their character's Background as part of their subclass.
In that way you get the best of both worlds... you get to denote who your character is and what they feel they are from the very beginning of their adventuring career... and they gain mechanical benefits for having it-- a pair of skills, a tool, language, and a feat. Basically turn your Background into your very first subclass feature.
Make your Background "Acolyte of the Open Hand Temple". Or "Yoriki to the Local Samurai". Or "Student of the Illusion School". Or "Fey Chanter of the Glamour Queen". Or "Adherent of the Moon Circle".
Heck... there's probably a good DM's Guild product right there-- writing up a whole bunch of Backgrounds that are all connected to each of the subclasses in the game, with all the proper mechanical selections made to boost it.
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Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I suspect one underlying difference in opinion is how much mechanical distinction is necessary/desireable to define a concept. I’m on the low end of that scale. A couple of flavorful but mechanically minor features, even just ribbons, and I’m happy.
Yaarel
Mind Mage
Access to "mom" is also kinda Strixhaven, where the school has mentors and staff.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Then don't do that. You don't really have much right to complain if you choose to play it drastically different for levels 1 and 2 and then switch to something jarring. That's all on you.
I would not play it different and so it would not be drastically different or jarring.
Also, why can't you have full or half casting start at 3rd level? It's simple to accomplish. All you need to do is start it at 3rd level. Done.
Seriously, though. Start it at 3rd level and every few levels add in an extra slot and the missing spell level at some point. By 9th level you will have made up the lost 2 levels of spells without there being anything jarring going on and will progress like every other full or half caster.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
What do those of us who have no class do?!How about you pick your Class Group at level 1, your Class at level 3 & your subclass at level 5.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
22. You just got your bachelors degree and are ready to go out into the world and try to find your first real job, except no one will hire you due to lack of practical experience.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
NPCs aren't generally built with the class system, so you can make a researcher archmage that has several "levels" of power without ever having gone into combat.
fluffybunbunkittens
Adventurer
With the current rate of levelling, they might well still be 20 years old when they hit level 20...
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I was talking about a significant mechanical change.
Then you’d miss the first two levels of spell progression…Also, why can't you have full or half casting start at 3rd level? It's simple to accomplish. All you need to do is start it at 3rd level. Done.
That’s just not how 5e spell progression works
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
That is also the fault of the player. If you don't want to be jarred by your rogue going from 0 to expert at scouting at 3rd level, pick those two proficiencies at first level and then has a smooth progression from good to expert.
The player has control over whether his PC is moving smoothly towards his subclass or whether it's a jarring change.
Not if you follow my suggestion.
It's EXACTLY how 5e works. 5e is an exceptions based system and specific beats general. Those specific subclasses beat out the general rules on spell progression.
Yaarel
Mind Mage
Heh. 20. Its more like just got your AA degree. And they will hire you!22. You just got your bachelors degree and are ready to go out into the world and try to find your first real job, except no one will hire you due to lack of practical experience.
Yeah, I said "NPC", but I really meant noncombatant "commoner", in contrast to PCs who have levels in a class.
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