Scout is just an example, one that illustrates the problem particularly well. If it’s supposed to be the non-magical ranger, it should be that from 1st level instead of spending 2 levels as a thief and then retroactively becoming a non-magical ranger. But you can see the same effect with like the Cavalier Fighter.
It’s definitely preference. But personally I think there’s good reason to favor the more flexible design. And I don’t think doing so has to make the game more complex at 1st level.
If you want subclasses chosen at 1st level, that makes the game more complex by definition unless something else is removed. What should be taken out, or pushed back to 3rd, to make room?
A decade of sabotage. Even once they got what they wanted.
I have no idea what you mean here.
I see it as a problem that is self created. Were I playing the future scout, I would have the scouting skills already and be using them from level 1 to scout for the group. By level 3 nothing retroactive is happening. It's just the natural progression what I started at level 1 and my skills are improving. Same with the cavalier.
But the magical ranger gets to be a ranger from 1st level, whereas the scout has to wait until 3rd level. Until then they’re just the same as anyone else who happened to train in Nature and Survival (which by the way Scout actively disincentivizes).
I’d be fine with that even if the unique crunchy feature didn’t come until 3rd level, honestly.
But this doesn’t address the problem of subclasses having less design space the later they’re acquired. It also ignores the fact that some classes do get to have their subclasses at 1st level. Apparently one more nice thing non-casters aren’t allowed to have.
You're conflating class with specialty. The magical ranger can't be a super duper hunter until 3rd level. He can't be a magical beast master until 3rd level. Nor can he be an underdark sneaky gloomstalker until 3rd level. Just like the rogue, he's only somewhat decent at what he will become at 3rd level, then he advances in skill into his specialty.
The only class that needs its subclasses at level1 are cleric and sorcerer do to the way subclass drastically changes how they play.
Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer are 1st level features. The ranger gets to be a wilderness expert and monster hunter from 1st level. They get better at those things as they level up, sure, but they get to be the concept from the beginning. But Scout, the thing people point to as the alternative to a non-spellcasting ranger, doesn’t get to be a wilderness expert until 3rd level and arguably doesn’t ever get to be a monster hunter.
Which is only possible because they get their subclasses at 1st level. Having subclasses start at 3rd level, or even 2nd level, significantly curtails the subclasses’ ability to change how the base class plays, which is precisely why I’m advocating for all subclasses to start at 1st level. Doing otherwise is leaving valuable design space on the table.
It’s a noncaster thing in 5e. Every class that gets a 1st level subclass is a caster. Because only casters are allowed to do anything interesting.
That’s fine, I don’t have a problem with that.
I’m not having this argument with you again.
Scout:
The Scout subclass doesn’t grant features until 3rd level, and that fact actively discourages players from taking these skills from their background or class, or using their limited expertise slots on them.
None of these features really express wilderness expertise or monster hunting. They’re entirely stealth and mobility focused features, which while certainly beneficial for a survivalist type character, don’t really express the archetype in any significant way.
As this is a thread about 1st level subclasses, I have just made a suggestion how a Scout subclass could work from 1st level and still not be too much features at 1st level.
