Subdual Damage and Deathless Frenzy

[Stalker0]

Deathless frenzy prevents disabled at 0 and dieing at negative numbers. However, subdual damage just knocks you unconscious...so would it negate deathless frenzy?

 

[Thanee]

I'd think so. When you have accumulated as much subdual damage as your current hit point total, then you fall unconscious. I don't see how that would be prevented.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Malum]

So your saying the infamous black knight of Holy Grail would have been KO'd if King Arthur used a stick instead of a sword? Just think if that was the case we would have never heard his taunts or witty repartee. I’m not buying it; it's not in the flavor of the class. The RAW is ambiguous and left for individual interpretation but this debate imo is nonsensical at best. Sure the rules lawyers can debate all day but just the thought of the following should sway your decision if the FB can be KO’d but not killed?

Ok men here they come
ready yourselfs
get your swords and spears ready
OOHH hold on, whats this?
These look like Bezerkers charging
Quick drop your swords take out your clubs

Does this sound about right?

 

[Bad Paper]

Does this sound about right?

...about as right as whacking Achilles on his heel, yes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The RAW is ambiguous and left for individual interpretation...

There's no ambiguity in this case, though. The effects of non-lethal damage are not one of the things mentioned in the ability description; thus, it has no influence over those effects.

The trick is not to attempt to deal enough non-lethal damage to exceed the Berserker's max hit points. It's to deal enough lethal damage (generally easier) to bring him down to 0 or lower... and then deal one point of non-lethal damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

Killing me softly

Bye
Thanee

 

[pawsplay]

Deathless Frenzy: At 4th level and higher, a frenzied berserker can scorn death and unconsciousness.

I believe, by the RAW, they can scorn nonlethal damage. Which is good, since under Frenzy it states:

However, she also takes a -4 penalty to Armor Class and takes 2 points of nonlethal damage per round.

which would mean Deathless Frenzy would always last a maximum of 1 round.

 

[Wish]

Why bother dealing any non-lethal damage at all? Everybody starts out with 0 non-lethal damage. 0 is more than -1, so when somebody's hp drop to -1 (or lower), they're unconcious due to non-lethal damage, even if they wouldn't otherwise be unconcious due to being at -1 hp. Sure, it kind of makes the Diehard feat and Frenzied Berserker class utterly pointless (along with some other, similar abilities), but why should we let that get in the way of rules literalism.

 

[pawsplay]

I must have missed the sentence where they said, "The first line of every class feature is fluff text, not actual description of the ability, and not only may be ignored, but should be deliberately contradicted." Because I don't see that line, and without it, even rules literalism does not explain how someone could rule that nonlethal damage knocks out someone who scorns death and unconsciousness.

Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between –1 and –9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

 

[IcyCool]

Why bother dealing any non-lethal damage at all? Everybody starts out with 0 non-lethal damage. 0 is more than -1, so when somebody's hp drop to -1 (or lower), they're unconcious due to non-lethal damage, even if they wouldn't otherwise be unconcious due to being at -1 hp. Sure, it kind of makes the Diehard feat and Frenzied Berserker class utterly pointless (along with some other, similar abilities), but why should we let that get in the way of rules literalism.

I don't think I really need to point this out, but as far as the rules are concerned, 0 and - are two separate things.