Sudden Metamagic Feats Rock!

[Darkness]

Mages are great for certain things but survivability in spellfighting isnt' one of them.

A minor globe of invulnerability would have seriously ruined your day, BTW.

 

[JoeGKushner]

A minor globe of invulnerability would have seriously ruined your day, BTW.

Aren't you telling the truth! I'm not saying that it was an epic kill, but it was cool how the GM was just completely unprepared for the damage from the Sudden Maximize and he just gave me the Rod of Empower. I think that he was feeling a little guilty because I've passed up a lot of magic items and used a lot of magic items up that were for long term things.

For example, I use a greatsword. I figure I'm not getting into combat often, but when I do, I better be able to do some damage. Early on, we got a +3 Dagger of Speed. I gave that to the dwarf whose a fighter barbarian. Vicscious damage potential in his hands. We got a Ring of Protection, I gave that the human fighter-thief whose actually in combat more than I am. We got a necklace of fireballs, but I used it on a non-related quest to help one side of an army win a battle against another side. It wasn't necessary, but it helped end the battle quicker and with fewer causalties.

My character has like two magic items, Bracers of Armor +2 and the Rod.

Have I tried to maximize my character's survivabiltiy? Yup. Do I feel I'm a twink? Nope.

 

[philreed]

Oddly enough, there are those who would look upon the one-shot kill of a tenth level active and buffed adversary by a 6th level character with a special feat etc as a sign of a problem, instead of a reason for rejoicing.

I don't see it as a problem at all. After all, if the PCs can do it to an NPC . . .

 

[Thanee]

Sudden Maximize, however, is about the only useful of the bunch.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darkness]

Have I tried to maximize my character's survivabiltiy? Yup. Do I feel I'm a twink? Nope.

Yes. I'm trying to demonstrate, for the benefit of those who think taking out a CR 10 opponent at level 6 is overpowering, that your best attack cannot always hope to win such encounters.
It certainly annihilates challenges around your level, of course, but since it's just 1/day that's not a problem IMNSHO.

 

[Izerath]

Broken broken broken - but that's a matter of stylistic opinion.....

I tend to agree with swrushing here.

As a DM, I dislike these feats for the very reason Joe was happy. The BBEG just bit it while I was trying to build some story momentum. It wasn't meant to be a final showdown, yet the feat totally allows the extraordinary to happen too frequently. Ironically, I just posted this potential danger example about Sudden Feats on another thread!

While this incident would normally be a total fluke, the BBEG is dead none-the-less. Worse yet, if roles were reversed and this happened to the players, they'd likely be pissed as hell, crying foul. Not that I have immature players, but it's bound to happen - people are people and they don't like to lose a fight. Seems like Joe's group knows better, Joe in particular.

Why did the BBEG spend all that time buffing up and not mopping the floor with you?

Sometimes as a story element, I will dangle a BBEG who is WAY higher a CR than the group should encounter, just to build up some tension to the story elements. In these situations I want some level of verisimilitude to realism, meaning, the BBEG SHOULD WIN if he pulls out all the stops. The PCs SHOULD RUN AWAY. I intentionally pull the NPC punches for the betterment of the story LATER when the PCs are ready for the showdown of the century.

How can you build up the arrogant villian if the PCs win the first encounter with him every time by pulling out the Sudden Death feats? It hardly makes for creating the story fun. Every once in a while the shadow player has to come out and show himself to give the PCs the face of the enemy. Why does he have to die right off the bat all the time? Given that building a good story is one of the things that makes DMing so great, I can't ever see allowing these feats into my games. But hey, that's just me....

Glad you enjoyed your kill Joe. Heed Phil Reed's words and don't be mad if the shoe falls on the other foot.

 

[Mercule]

At the risk of sounding like an oddball, I'll throw out that I've banned Sudden Metamagic feats. Not because of any concern with balance -- I think they're fine balance-wise -- but because I loathe any "x/day" mechanic. It's a clumsy and lazy way to handle things, whether manifested in spell slots, clerical turning attempts, barbarian rage, or some other form. Using the mechanic in a feat is especially egregious.

3E brought enough good mechanics to the table that I'm willing to accept that as interim baggage, but I'm not going to heap more wood on the fire. My singular major hope for 4E is that WotC will iron things out with the sloppy "x/day" features (except, maybe, spell slots as a sacred cow) because that'd solve pretty much every significant gripe I've got with the d20 system. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in that.

 

[Darkness]

After all, if the PCs can do it to an NPC . . .

That's not a good balancing philosophy.

One, it doesn't balance PCs against each other. If you give my monk the ability to do maximum damage whenever I roll 15+ on an attack roll, I'm going to be more effective than my team-mates of otherwise similar prowess.

Two, NPCs being able to do something too does not mean PC powers are balanced, nor is it necessary for a DM to exploit the rules in such a way. If the DM wants, he can invent a half-balor template to give a 1st-level goblin Commoner blasphemy at will, so he has little need to resort to broken tactics available to PCs to challenge them. (Also... A friend of mine delights in combining templates, feats etc. to create monsters that are far overpowered for their CR. If you don't min/max like mad in his games, you're toast even against nominally lower-CR opponents. I'd rather he created what he wants from the whole cloth and sets an appropriate CR instead of exploiting the rules to get the toughest monster for the lowest CR.)

 

[JoeGKushner]

Glad you enjoyed your kill Joe. Heed Phil Reed's words and don't be mad if the shoe falls on the other foot.

Are you kidding? I kept waiting for the guy to hit me with a spell but I wasn't crowded with all the other guys, who are pretty much Fighter-multiclass (fighter, fighter-barbarian, fighter-ranger, fighter-rogue).

On the opposite end, when I was a GM, I had a necromancer who had a rod of maximize that the party wanted to get. He was a 10th level character, the party was 10th-15th level. They had no tactics at all and were grouped together. They broke into his tomb, which lead to an underground cavern system. They found his lair, he wasn't there. They didn't make any spot or listen checks to see if anything was out of place (they might've noticed him even invisible.)

1st round of surprise... he casts a maximized fireball using the rod. Two guys go down dead.

1st round of combat... Well, he's flying and there's only one guy good with the bow, a 7th
level ranger-4th level vigil. He goes for the mage's chest in his room, which is trapped and fails his save, becoming paralized. Everyone else does basically nothing. There's a 15th level cleric with the party and he doesn't have dispel magic memorized. Needless to say, necromancer again does the maximized fireball.

2nd round of combat... party is basically helpless. Cleric tries some stuff and heals a little but this time, it's a scroll with finger of death on it that kills a 8th level fighter-4th level monk who needed a 3 to make his saving throw. Now note, I use Hero Points that act as a natural twenty, but you get 200 xp for each one if you save it per level. He decides not to use it and rolls a 2. Dead.

3rd round... it's pretty much all over from this point.

 

[Darkness]

... It wasn't meant to be a final showdown, yet the feat totally allows the extraordinary to happen too frequently. ...

And if Joe spends his power and can't rest before the final showdown, he can't hurt your plans.

While this incident would normally be a total fluke, the BBEG is dead none-the-less.

One, damage wasn't calculated completely correctly. It should have been lower. Two, the enemy didn't fight tactically sound. He wasted actions and didn't even get an effective defense out of it. Three, wizards can't take much damage, whether from a spell or a raging barbarian. If he had been a bebilith (same CR), he'd be alive and well now.

How can you build up the arrogant villian if the PCs win the first encounter with him every time by pulling out the Sudden Death feats?

By backing up his arrogance mechanically. A minor globe of invulnerability or something - quite within the means of a Wiz10 - just might have sufficed.
D&D is not a movie, novel or similar thing. I don't want to be mean, but I must say that neglecting defenses and hoping players don't act tactically effectively is not a good plan for a BBEG who wants to put himself into harm's way to tease them.