Suggestion : Kill your ally.

[Iku Rex]

Are there any examples in the PH that allow multiple clauses as part of the suggestion?

Yes. It's been mentioned several times already in this thread.

The full text of the spell description from the PH can be found in this RotG article:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051011a

You can word a suggestion so as to make the requested activity seem reasonable. The spell description uses an example in which the caster suggests that a pool of acid is pure water and suggests a swim therein.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's two suggestions because otherwise the first clause is knowingly false. "My friends are doppelgangers? The hell you say, fiend!" The action clause then becomes entirely unreasonable.

Are there any examples in the PH that allow multiple clauses as part of the suggestion? I've always ruled that it should be worded as "I suggest you ..." without any prefacing. The prefacing part that you and others allow is unsupported by the spell description IMO.

However, a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water (preface) and that a quick dip would be refreshing (action) is another matter.

You should go reread it then.

Even the example in the PHB shows a preface and an action.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It is an interesting question whether or how you should handle a Suggestion that contains a number factual assertions that target has certain knowledge are false versus a Suggestion which the target has no information with which to contradict the content.

Do you believe these Suggestions are the same rulewise?

(1) Suggest the target jump into the "refreshing pool of water" when the target has absolutely no idea whatsoever what the pool contains.

(2) Suggest the target jump into a "refreshing pool of water" when he just saw someone die a horrible and graphic death by corrosive effect in the same pool 6 seconds ago.

I would handle them very differently.

 

[Fieari]

Okay then, try this suggestion:

"We have just cast a spell on you and your friends that would shunt you elsewhere and replace you with a doppleganger, but you and only you have succeeded in resisting this spell. The spell will return your friends as soon as you kill the dopplegangers, so kill them."

 

[CRGreathouse]

Okay then, try this suggestion:

"We have just cast a spell on you and your friends that would shunt you elsewhere and replace you with a doppleganger, but you and only you have succeeded in resisting this spell. The spell will return your friends as soon as you kill the dopplegangers, so kill them."

I like the way you think.

 

[Devilkiller]

3. Make your PC roleplay it. If they make a convincing wording, then it might affect your decision.

I think this sounds like a perfect time to use the Bluff skill. I suppose the DM could always decide that any particular suggestion or its preface don't sound reasonable based on roleplaying or whim, but the game already has a skill for fooling people. If you want to tell your enemy that his ally has been replaced by a doppleganger that's a bluff. I suppose characters with a really high bluff might be able to make somebody suspscious of their allies even without a spell to back it up, but the Suggestion would push them over the edge into an attack.

That's just an idea, and it wouldn't stop a character with decent social skills for long, but if there's no chance for your victim to see through the lie you feed him in the preface then you can probably make absolutely any action seem reasonable, even if just by telling him that his deity demands it on pain of utter destruction (and perhaps with the benefit of a rich reward). I think that makes the spell a little too open-ended for a 2nd level spell. My problem with the "attack your allies" use isn't that you'd attack your friends but that you'd attack your friends without even getting a second save, much less with a +2 bonus. That's clearly a far more powerful order of compulsion than Dominate Person, which is a much higher level spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think this sounds like a perfect time to use the Bluff skill. I suppose the DM could always decide that any particular suggestion or its preface don't sound reasonable based on roleplaying or whim, but the game already has a skill for fooling people.

I think this is a bad idea.

If the spell required the Bluff skill, it would state so.

The spell should just have a reasonable chance to work given a reasonable suggestion by the PC or NPC. There is already a Saving Throw.

Forcing the PC to use the Bluff skill just makes the spell more worthless.

 

[Machiavelli]

Ok, say you're a DM and someone casts "Suggestion", which is a 3rd-level spell. Now, the intended effect is to cause some harm to an enemy or two in what is already a combat situation. Ask your self first: "was the use of Suggestion done in a particularly interesting and clever manner obviously attempting to fall within the spell description?" If no, then tell your player it fails. If yes, then ask yourself "at the caster's current level, would a Fireball cause as much harm on this battlefield?" If no, then the intent is more dangerous than a spell at that level should be, and you should creatively limit the effect. If yes, then allow the spell, and watch your player cackle with the glee of success, knowing in your heart that you are, in fact, a wise and benevolent god of this microcosm.

After all, that's what a DM is. Don't let something stupid ruin the game you've (hopefully) invested hours planning, because you honesly do have the power to over-rule anything you want to.

If Suggestion is used outside of combat to have a thematic effect, then once again do not by any means allow the spell to utterly ruin the campaign. If it has to fail, then go ahead and come up with a reason for it to fail. Perhaps a passer-by reminds the spell's target of his long-dead mother, who used to say "never trust a stranger", and he gets just exactly the circumstance bonus he needs to make his Will save. Even cheese like that is fine, if you've built a reputation with your players of a DM capable of writing an intriguing campaign.

If your players decide not to take the hint, and just keep trying to break the campaign, then your players suck. They don't care about being characters in a good story, they just want to have little power-trips in made up lives. Excuse yourself from the game, or use a pre-built hack-n-slash campaign, which can be fun in its own right.

 

[KarinsDad]

If yes, then allow the spell, and watch your player cackle with the glee of success, knowing in your heart that you are, in fact, a wise and benevolent god of this microcosm.

After all, that's what a DM is. Don't let something stupid ruin the game you've (hopefully) invested hours planning, because you honesly do have the power to over-rule anything you want to.

If Suggestion is used outside of combat to have a thematic effect, then once again do not by any means allow the spell to utterly ruin the campaign. If it has to fail, then go ahead and come up with a reason for it to fail. Perhaps a passer-by reminds the spell's target of his long-dead mother, who used to say "never trust a stranger", and he gets just exactly the circumstance bonus he needs to make his Will save. Even cheese like that is fine, if you've built a reputation with your players of a DM capable of writing an intriguing campaign.

If your players decide not to take the hint, and just keep trying to break the campaign, then your players suck.

Personally, I think your suggestion here sucks. This does not sound like the actions of a wise and benevolent god.

Anytime a DM railroads his game and just flat out prevents the players from achieving their goals, just to keep his storyline going the way he wants it, is the time to quit that campaign.

Games should be dynamic, not scripted. The game revolves around the decisions and actions of both the PCs and the NPCs. Both the players and the DM. All of these people are at the table. And sometimes, the most interesting sessions occur when events surprise the DM.

And sometimes the PCs should just get an easy win, regardless of how many crafted plotlines the DM wants the PCs to experience.

There is a difference between power and abuse of power. Let the dice decide. That's why saving throws are in the game.

 

[Sejs]

...Perhaps a passer-by reminds the spell's target of his long-dead mother, who used to say "never trust a stranger"...

"Hamie, never put salt in your eyes..."