D&D 5E Suggestion spell, AKA: the importance of session zero(ish) discussions with your DM

[DND_Reborn]

Thats actually a feature of Cultists:

Dark Devotion: The cultist has advantage on Saving Throws against being Charmed or Frightened.

Interesting...

I don't know if it applies because those are conditions. If you compare Charm Person for instance to Suggestion, Charm Person actually says the target is charmed ("If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends...") as where Suggestion never mentions it (except if you are immune to Charm). The target of Suggestion is not under the charmed condition, as where the target of Charm Person certainly is.

I could understand a DM ruling either way on that really, so not trying to be argumentative, just food for thought.

So why allow the save in the first place?

Your DM got that one wrong.

Yeah, certainly agree on that one.

 

[Lanefan]

I also think this is a symptom of a common issue I see in games: The DM making a ruling to preserve his plan, as opposed to looking for a way for the player to tell their part of the story as they wish to tell it.

This happens when the DM is not on the player's side. The DM thinks about how the DM can challenge the PCs. The DM wants to make things tough for the PCs. The DM is the opposition and controls all the variables.

I believe the game works best when the DM is on the side of the PCs. The DM is rooting for them. The DM creates a story for the PCs, filled with challenges, but the quality of the story is the star, not how close the DM can put the PCs to death in each encounter.

Where I think it works best if the DM is neutral.

In this case the dice are deciding anyway, and given that the target failed what sounds like an easy saving throw the DM IMO should have had the cult leader give the order to let the party pass.

Now, a DM who wanted to throw in a potential complication just for kicks might quietly roll to see whether all the cultists obeyed said order - with low-but-not-zero odds that some fanatic disobeyed - as the Suggestion only affects the cult leader, not the followers. A disobeyance could trigger conflict within the cultists and lead to all sorts of interesting things...

 

[MarkB]

Where the DM comes off as being a dick is by having the opponent make the saving throw, and then ruling afterwards that it doesn't work. If he didn't want to deal with the effects of a failed save, he should've ruled it ineffective from the start.

The DM should have found a middle ground in some fashion - for instance, the cultist leader chooses to back down, believing he can talk his way out of it to his boss, only for his chief henchman to immediately backstab him and take his place. The DM still gets his confrontation, but your spell got the strongest member of the opposition wiped out and now it's a more even fight.

 

[DemoMonkey]

"That won't work, it's not a reasonable request in this situation. You get the feeling that knowingly disobeying their master is no different than walking off a cliff to these cultists. What else could you Suggest?"

There is no "A card laid is a card played" rule in D&D.

 

[Umbran]

So why allow the save in the first place?

Yes. This is actually the problem. The GM can and should disallow unreasonable Suggestions - like, things that will clearly result in great harm or death to something the target cares about. Then, the suggestion should just fail, without a save.

 

[Oofta]

I think suggestion is a tough spell for a DM to adjudicate.

In this particular case I would have given the leader advantage on their save because to me, enchantment spells it's covered under the "Charmed" rider for the cultist.

However that's where it gets tricky. The leader is the only one that was affected. In addition, the "... or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. " is tough. Letting them go is logically obviously harmful in this particular scenario.

However I probably also would have tried to work with the player. Did the PCs know who these cultists were? Could a slightly different suggestion have worked? Should the PC have known about alternative suggestions that would have worked better?

This where I try to work with my players and may have some intelligence or wisdom checks (along with possible proficiencies) before they utter a word of the spell. The PCs are often smarter and wiser than the players, or at least my PCs are frequently smarter or wiser than me.

As others have suggested I think the leader would have had to convince his followers to leave which led to arguments and discussion which would give the PCs a chance to bravely beat a hasty retreat.

 

[Shiroiken]

Where I think it works best if the DM is neutral.

I guess I'm old school here. I recall when the DM was considered a designer, storyteller, and judge. You wrote the adventure, told the story involved, and impartially adjudicated the actions of the players. If the players came up with creative solutions, you rolled with it based on the merit of the idea, not the impact on the game. Of course, this was also back when the philosophy on combat was to try and win before initiative was ever rolled.

From everything I can tell, this was how Lord Robilar was able to succeed in the Tomb or Horrors, which was more or less specifically written to kill him. Gary wrote the meanest dungeon he could, filled with the nastiest tricks and traps, but Rob was just one step ahead every time. Not sure of the details, but I would hazard that Robliar sent many of his followers and henchmen to their deaths.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Generally the desire to not risk one's life in a violent confrontation should supply a fair amount of reasonableness in "you want to leave our heavily armed group alone" uses of Suggestion, even if you don't say that.

But Suggestion is a tough spell that requires an impromptu precise phrasing by the caster and then adjudicating what "reasonable" means to the target, whose psychology they may not have really thought out extensively, on the fly, and how they would respond to the precise two sentences of magical suggestion. There's a complex totality of circumstances for the DM to weigh, and that's before getting to the more problematic element that the spell is often going to nullify some encounter the DM planned or screw up their plot entirely. So it is a lot of pressure on the DM all at once, and also a lot on the player casting it to find the perfect phrasing that will get what they want.

A DM who I sometimes frustrated with this spell hit upon the angle of exploiting the "if the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do" element with legalistic precision. Thus in this case they would move aside and let you pass, but the spell would end as soon as you did so and the target returns to his normal thinking (and possibly realizes he was ensorcelled). I think this would be a fair ruling here.

My main guiding principle for a happy table when adjudicating Suggestion should be that if the spell succeeds the players get something, not necessarily what they want, but something, even if they have not crafted the most perfectly worded Suggestion they could. At the very least something interesting should happen, and the real failure here, I think is just that the resolution was boring. "Not reasonable enough" rulings are almost always just going to be boring downers.

If I were the DM, if your phrasing really was "step aside and let us pass unaccosted", I would probably let you pass, and then give you an Arcana check to realize that based on your phrasing the spell would end more or less immediately after you had been allowed to pass, so you had better break into a run once you are past them, or I would have the leader get in an argument with the other cultists and have you make an Insight check to realize that you could get in a surprise round if you immediately attacked.

 

[tommybahama]

We had a similar situation with the Suggestion spell on Monday. A cleric tried casting it on a monstrosity without realizing that it didn't speak Common so the spell wouldn't work. Our DM allowed him to retcon his action and do something different. I think that was a generous way of handling the situation by the DM.

 

[auburn2]

The DM botched that one. The rules say the suggestion must be worded so as to SOUND reasonable. That is fundamentally different than saying the suggestion needs to BE reasonable.

It might not actually be reasonable for cultists to let you go, but if the suggestion "sounds" reasonable (as yours did) then they need to save.

When all else fails remember we are talking about magic and you are literally casting a spell on him! In terms of being "reasonsable", It is a heck of a lot more "reasonable" for cultists to part and let you pass by then it is to have webs materialize out of midair and entrap them all (which you could have made happen with a different spell selection).

Now if you came out of the dungeon and tried to persuade them to let you pass, without a spell, I would not permit a check (unless for some reason you tried to fool them or something else).