D&D 5E Suggestion spell, AKA: the importance of session zero(ish) discussions with your DM

[Imaculata]

Yeah, I agree with @Retreater on this one and your DM, but I also see the other point of view.

The spell affects a single target. The DM could easily rule that target gets advantage because it knows following your suggestion will put it at odds with the other cultists anyway.

That is not how the spell works. The spell makes the target ignore such details. This was a reasonable request that would not result in any direct harm to the target. So at the very least this could have resulted in a conflict between the leader and the other cultists.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The spell should have worked. I think the DM might have been trying to save a plot point. A case of poorly implemented DM force.

I agree. The spell would make the cultist believe the leader would want the players to be allowed to pass. The plot point could still have been saved less clumsily and without completely penalising the players by having another cultist realise what had happened and stab the suggested cultist in the back.

"These aren't the droids you are looking for".

You think Vader gave those troopers a medal when they reported in?

 

[Torquar]

Hit the leader and it's all stormtroopers. We aren't the droids you're looking for.

Not necessarily, the suggestion itself is not the verbal component.

When you cast Suggestion do you actually have to speak the suggestion aloud?

D&D Sage Advice ·

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The rest of them hear you cast a spell then make a suggestion to their leader who, out of character, obeys it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That is not how the spell works. The spell makes the target ignore such details. This was a reasonable request that would not result in any direct harm to the target. So at the very least this could have resulted in a conflict between the leader and the other cultists.

Well, that is fine for your interpretation. But, please, don't tell me "That is not how the spell works." as that is really up to the DM what is "reasonable" or not and it is also up to the DM when they feel it is appropriate to apply advantage or disadvantage to a roll:

So, as I said, the "The DM could easily rule that target gets advantage because it knows following your suggestion will put it at odds with the other cultists anyway." I never said they should or shouldn't, because that is up to the individual DM, and why I said "could."

Also, in another post, I suggested as well that this could result in a "conflict" between the leader and other cultists (which is what I would have done instead of just saying the lead cultist succeeded even after he had failed--even with advantage).

 

[Coroc]

Also the OP describes "a bunch of cultists." The spell specifically works on one target. It absolutely should not have worked. At best, it would've saved you from a single cultist in the mob.

wow so far no one noticed, but for the sake of this discussion let us assume it was mass suggestion instead

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Generally the desire to not risk one's life in a violent confrontation should supply a fair amount of reasonableness in "you want to leave our heavily armed group alone" uses of Suggestion, even if you don't say that.

But Suggestion is a tough spell that requires an impromptu precise phrasing by the caster and then adjudicating what "reasonable" means to the target, whose psychology they may not have really thought out extensively, on the fly, and how they would respond to the precise two sentences of magical suggestion. There's a complex totality of circumstances for the DM to weigh, and that's before getting to the more problematic element that the spell is often going to nullify some encounter the DM planned or screw up their plot entirely. So it is a lot of pressure on the DM all at once, and also a lot on the player casting it to find the perfect phrasing that will get what they want.

Especially, as one of my player is fond of, if the suggestion is "We're officer of the law, you're outnumbered, surrender and cooperate with interogation so you'll be granted a more lenient sentence by the court". It is reasonable, he's using it when there is only a few (usually the biggest) opponent standing around and he's exploiting this to have a cooperative speaker for 8 hours. There is only so much conspiracy you can do if your enforcers are totally ignorant of anything to prevent them from revealing information. I feel they are "abusing" the power of a 2nd level spell. Especially since they never actually cared to mention that they speak for their prisonner when they turn him down to their colleague at the city jail.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I want to use yuan-ti heavily in my next campaign, and they've all got Suggestion. Unfortunately, Suggestion is a really hard spell to adjudicate. What's "reasonable"?

Say for example some yuan-ti purebloods want to get some magic items from a shop. How could the purebloods' use of Suggestion affect things?

• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should give us a discount on this item. We'll be more likely to be repeat customers and recommend your business to others"?
• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should give us a discount on all the items we buy. We'll be more likely to be repeat customers and recommend your business to others"?
• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should hand these items over to us. They're cursed, and we don't want a good person like you to come under their evil influence"?
• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should help us load all your wares into our wagon to be relocated to a safe location. We know thieves are planning to ransack your shop tonight and don't want your business to be ruined"?

I guess perhaps the yuan-ti would have better chances at a Suggestion seeming reasonable if they had an established positive reputation or had spread rumors about cursed items or a planned robbery.

Still, what does Suggestion do exactly that a good Persuasion or Deception roll can't? Is it just an alternative that makes the target roll against a save against a static DC whereas Charisma checks might have contested Persuasion vs Insight roles?

I'm personally considering swapping out the yuan-ti Suggestion power for Charm Person in my next campaign.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Still, what does Suggestion do exactly that a good Persuasion or Deception roll can't? Is it just an alternative that makes the target roll against a save against a static DC whereas Charisma checks might have contested Persuasion vs Insight roles?

That's a good question. Think of suggestion as planting a precise course of action in their mind and forcing them to follow it rather than persuading them. Suggestion can do more than a persuasion roll would because it enables one to convince with no argument, logic, or evidence and keep them convinced until the course of action prescribed by the caster is complete with minimal variation. As long as it is a "reasonable" course of action and they fail the save they will pursue it for up to eight hours without fail.

Say for example some yuan-ti purebloods want to get some magic items from a shop. How could the purebloods' use of Suggestion affect things?

• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should give us a discount on this item. We'll be more likely to be repeat customers and recommend your business to others"?
• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should give us a discount on all the items we buy. We'll be more likely to be repeat customers and recommend your business to others"?
• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should hand these items over to us. They're cursed, and we don't want a good person like you to come under their evil influence"?
• Could they use Suggestion to say "You should help us load all your wares into our wagon to be relocated to a safe location. We know thieves are planning to ransack your shop tonight and don't want your business to be ruined"?

Most of these they are basically just convincing someone of something, so trying social skills is almost certainly the better tact. Suggestion only works until the spell ends, at which point the target may feel very different about things. Suggestion is really for when you want a specific course of action, not just for convincing someone of something.

Of these examples Suggestion is good for the last where you get the shop keeper to help load all the stuff in your cart to take it someplace safe. Whether or not that is reasonable is definitely going to be a DM call depending on the totality of circumstances (mainly is the NPC at all inclined to trust people, do you have any "evidence", and is this the sort of locale where the story makes sense) but I don't think any deception roll could keep them helping you at length without asking more questions and requiring more successful deception checks, whereas the Suggestion spell commits them to the course of action until it is done. Of course the moment the last item is loaded the spell is broken, but at that point you make a run for it while the angry shopkeeper shakes his fist at you, so you still probably got what you needed.

I would, once again, encourage DMs to be generous in construing "reasonable" because you will have more fun usually having the spell work and then having the characters deal with the fallout when it abruptly ends then you will getting hung up on what is reasonable. "Reasonable" is there to force a little creativity and keep this from just being a "give us your money, dance for our amusement, and then kill yourself" sicko murder-hobo spell or just a boring combat spell.

 

[Guest 6801328]

My favorite use of Suggestion is twinned: "Your buddy is about to kill you; you should kill him first before he has a chance!"

But, by the definition of "reasonable" used by the OP's DM, this would not be reasonable.

Maybe the spell description should have used "plausible" rather than "reasonable"? Still subjective, but perhaps better.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't usually allow Suggestion to cause results that might directly harm the target, so suggesting the target fight anyone is right out.

But I do allow Suggestion to produce some other non-harmful but certainly silly-looking results; my personal favourite being "Do nothing else except tell this tree the name of every person you have ever met". Target starts talking to a tree, we walk away...